Early game strategy help

[Hebbe]

I´d like to hear how people think early game, mostly regarding worker vs. settler vs. granary for example.

I´m pretty comfortable on emperor and win the occasional game on immortal, so I´m not completely awful, but I really don´t have a good feel for the early game and what I need to prioritize. On immortal and also sometimes on emperor the AI will snatch the good spots before I can get my minimum of 2 settlers out there and I just want to know if I got my priorities right.

I´ve read that you should try and steal your first worker from CS´, but so far no such luck, they simply don´t have them that early on on immortal as far as I can tell. I´ve tried a couple of different approaches, for instance one city NC, two city and three city NC. Hardbuilding a settler early on doesn´t seem like a viable option, so the option is pretty much either hardbuild a worker and buy settler or buy worker and later on both hardbuild and buy settler. The problem with buying a settler is that it´s very luck dependent if it can be done within a reasonable timeframe. Without gold from at least one ancient ruins, it takes forever and if none of the other civs have enought GPT to buy your luxury resource, you´re pretty much screwed.

Of course it´s somewhat dependent on the situation what your priorities are, but I´d like to hear the reasoning behind your decisions.

I pretty much always go full tradition since I like to keep my empire small, 3-4 tall cities, so going liberty is not really an option in this scenario.

Usually I start: scout -> scout -> granary -> library -> NC and I´ve also tried: scout -> scout -> worker -> library -> NC

As I said, I don´t really know if these are the types of builds you´d want

 

[VisageTDI]

Well your build should depend on the position you find yourself in, don't decide on it before you see how close your neighbours are and available city locations. Double Scout on start is very situational, if you find yourself in need of a lot of tile improvement you should start Worker right after Scout. You don't have to finish it right away if you need Granary or Shrine, but sometimes it might be better to delay buildings in favor of Worker/Archer/Settler. If you got tons of food around your capital, there's really not that much need for Granary right away. Also, if you're closely surrounded with other civs, go for early Settler or 2, otherwise you'll be stuck on 1 or 2 cities for quite a while.

I recently won a Babylon game on Immortal where I had only 2 cities for first half of the game, since I got forward settled on all sides. Map was Small Continents with low sea levels and 4 extra civs, and I had the "luck" of being in the middle of bunch of them.

 

[Vidszhite]

Double Scout can pay off if you meet enough city-states first. I met so many in my last game that I managed to buy a worker before my monument finished. I was America, though, so I had an easy time of it.

 

[Hebbe]

Well your build should depend on the position you find yourself in, don't decide on it before you see how close your neighbours are and available city locations. Double Scout on start is very situational, if you find yourself in need of a lot of tile improvement you should start Worker right after Scout. You don't have to finish it right away if you need Granary or Shrine, but sometimes it might be better to delay buildings in favor of Worker/Archer/Settler. If you got tons of food around your capital, there's really not that much need for Granary right away. Also, if you're closely surrounded with other civs, go for early Settler or 2, otherwise you'll be stuck on 1 or 2 cities for quite a while.

I recently won a Babylon game on Immortal where I had only 2 cities for first half of the game, since I got forward settled on all sides. Map was Small Continents with low sea levels and 4 extra civs, and I had the "luck" of being in the middle of bunch of them.

I feel like I get forward settled pretty much every time regardless of how close the other civs are (small map), assuming I have a good city location near me. I´ve pretty much automatically gone 2 scouts, but when I think about it, that´s kind of stupid I guess if the situation really warrants early worker.

Is it really doable to hardbuild a settler before even being able to buy a worker? I´ve tried going settler before worker, but it seems to always land me in negative happiness until I can get a worker and improve a lux resource. So combined it´ll stop city growth like 20-30 turns.

 

[bjelar]

It is highly situational.

Try playing the same start over and over again, do things differently and see which start is "best" for that particular starting location. Sometimes getting your 2nd city going is so important, I've done best by building settler the moment my cap hits pop 2.

You don't build monument? The extra culture is nice. After scout-scout-granary you should be able to get GL instead of library most of the time, although it is a gamble on immortal.

scout-monument-granary-GL, or monument-scout-shrine-GL is quite good sometimes, GL is powerful enough to be worth the gamble if you ask me (which you did ).

Even skipping the scout altogether may be ok, particularly on islands or small continents.

Kidnapping workers from CS is "best" but not always very practical. They usually show up 3000-ish BC. I didn't use to kidnap untill I found these forums, but then again I didn't use to rush for an early win either

 

[VisageTDI]

Is it really doable to hardbuild a settler before even being able to buy a worker? I´ve tried going settler before worker, but it seems to always land me in negative happiness until I can get a worker and improve a lux resource. So combined it´ll stop city growth like 20-30 turns.

As your difficulty level increases, worker appearance in City States quickens. So if you play on Immortal or Deity you'll have an easier time stealing workers.

If you don't want to do that or don't have the opportunity, you'll have to make a Worker before Settler. However, that means delaying some building(s), usually Library. Of course, if you find there's no other civ near you, feel free to delay the expansion, but otherwise new city on good location beats early gain you might have gained from making more buildings in capital.

You don't build monument? The extra culture is nice.

Since he's going Tradition, going Monument would waste precious time building other things. Of course, if you're going Liberty then Monument after Scout is almost mandatory, but on the other hand you won't be spending time building early Settler or Worker.

 

[bjelar]

Since he's going Tradition, going Monument would waste precious time building other things. Of course, if you're going Liberty then Monument after Scout is almost mandatory, but on the other hand you won't be spending time building early Settler or Worker.

How does experts evaluate my culture-focus combined with start tradition, two liberty (to get worker) then finish tradition? Am I wasting time with the two liberty policies? I do get quite a lot in return, +1 culture/city for the rest of the game, a free worker, workers improve faster, I can build pyramids... and it doesn't slow down tradition THAT much.

I even like to get honor opener early, just to rake in culture from barbs

I've noticed my favorite policy-policy isn't very pop on these forums, though

 

[Hebbe]

It is highly situational.

Try playing the same start over and over again, do things differently and see which start is "best" for that particular starting location. Sometimes getting your 2nd city going is so important, I've done best by building settler the moment my cap hits pop 2.

You don't build monument? The extra culture is nice. After scout-scout-granary you should be able to get GL instead of library most of the time, although it is a gamble on immortal.

scout-monument-granary-GL, or monument-scout-shrine-GL is quite good sometimes, GL is powerful enough to be worth the gamble if you ask me (which you did ).

Even skipping the scout altogether may be ok, particularly on islands or small continents.

Kidnapping workers from CS is "best" but not always very practical. They usually show up 3000-ish BC. I didn't use to kidnap untill I found these forums, but then again I didn't use to rush for an early win either

Playing the same start over and over again is actually a great idea, I´ve never really tried it extensively and kept track of the progress.

Since I go full tradition I don´t build monument, it seems like a huge waste of hammers since I´m getting it with the second SP anyway.

The ambition is to beat deity one of these days, I don´t go GL because, as I understand it, it´s not really an option on deity. So I don´t want to get bad habits like that

Since I always play pangea or continents, building at least one scout doesn´t seem optional

 

[Hebbe]

As your difficulty level increases, worker appearance in City States quickens. So if you play on Immortal or Deity you'll have an easier time stealing workers.

If you don't want to do that or don't have the opportunity, you'll have to make a Worker before Settler. However, that means delaying some building(s), usually Library. Of course, if you find there's no other civ near you, feel free to delay the expansion, but otherwise new city on good location beats early gain you might have gained from making more buildings in capital.

I guess you´re right I´ll just have to sacrifice some early growth or science if I feel like good locations are threatened

 

[bjelar]

Playing the same start over and over again is actually a great idea, I´ve never really tried it extensively and kept track of the progress.

Since I go full tradition I don´t build monument, it seems like a huge waste of hammers since I´m getting it with the second SP anyway.

The ambition is to beat deity one of these days, I don´t go GL because, as I understand it, it´s not really an option on deity. So I don´t want to get bad habits like that

Since I always play pangea or continents, building at least one scout doesn´t seem optional

I guess you are right about monument, although a free amphitheathre isn't a complete waste either. My reason for building monument early is my weird policy-mixing strategy

My experience on deity is that some AIs build GL 2800-ish BC (which I can not match) then other AIs build it 2400-ish BC (which I can sometimes beat). Sometimes noone builds it until 2000-ish BC, which is easy to beat. On average I'd say you've got maybe 20% chance to build GL on deity (depending on number of opponents) so it is probably NOT worth trying on deity.

Yes, I guess a scout always pays off on pangea.

 

[Hebbe]

I guess you are right about monument, although a free amphitheathre isn't a complete waste either. My reason for building monument early is my weird policy-mixing strategy

My experience on deity is that some AIs build GL 2800-ish BC (which I can not match) then other AIs build it 2400-ish BC (which I can sometimes beat). Sometimes noone builds it until 2000-ish BC, which is easy to beat. On average I'd say you've got maybe 20% chance to build GL on deity (depending on number of opponents) so it is probably NOT worth trying on deity.

Yes, I guess a scout always pays off on pangea.

The problem with opening liberty, going citizenship and then go full tradition is that you´re delaying the opening of renaissance SPs with at least one SP. So in the long run I doubt that it´s possible to benefit from it. If one is hellbound on delaying the renaissance SPs or if you´re lucky to befriend a cultural CS or two, patronage is far superior to a two SP liberty i m o.

A 20% chance is nowhere near worth taking the chance i m o

 

[bjelar]

The problem with opening liberty, going citizenship and then go full tradition is that you´re delaying the opening of renaissance SPs with at least one SP. So in the long run I doubt that it´s possible to benefit from it. If one is hellbound on delaying the renaissance SPs or if you´re lucky to befriend a cultural CS or two, patronage is far superior to a two SP liberty i m o.

A 20% chance is nowhere near worth taking the chance i m o

I guess when the whole world disagrees with me there is an off chance that the whole world may be right and that I'm wrong

But I'm still not convinced. I stubbornly suggest that liberty and tradition may well be the two best trees in the game (except rationalism) so why not choose both? (run and hide)

 

[VisageTDI]

How does experts evaluate my culture-focus combined with start tradition, two liberty (to get worker) then finish tradition? Am I wasting time with the two liberty policies? I do get quite a lot in return, +1 culture/city for the rest of the game, a free worker, workers improve faster, I can build pyramids... and it doesn't slow down tradition THAT much.

I even like to get honor opener early, just to rake in culture from barbs

I've noticed my favorite policy-policy isn't very pop on these forums, though

I've seen a lot of variations of early policy mix, including Tradition-Legalism into Liberty-Citizenship. However, if you're dipping into Tradition for extra culture in order to gain faster SPs, you're actually slowing down your early SPs in Liberty.

You can go Tradition-Aristocracy for early Wonder boost if needed, those 15% can help, especially if you have Marble as well. Then finish Liberty and proceed to take Legalism after you've completed Amphitheaters in your cities. That way you get free Opera houses as soon as you research Acoustics! After that you can either finish Tradition or go for other SPs.

 

[Hebbe]

I guess when the whole world disagrees with me there is an off chance that the whole world may be right and that I'm wrong

But I'm still not convinced. I stubbornly suggest that liberty and tradition may well be the two best trees in the game (except rationalism) so why not choose both? (run and hide)

Aside from rationalism, they probably are the best trees, but they both pretty much only benefit you early game. Either delaying the closing of liberty for a later game tech or delaying legalism may have its benefits, but other than that I don´t really see how the trees could be successfully combined without seriously hurting you later in the game.

 

[bjelar]

I've seen a lot of variations of early policy mix, including Tradition-Legalism into Liberty-Citizenship. However, if you're dipping into Tradition for extra culture in order to gain faster SPs, you're actually slowing down your early SPs in Liberty.

I've done a lot of testing here.

While it is true you get your worker 20 turns earlier (on marathon) skipping the tradition opener, if your goal is to complete both trees, the +3 culture catch up easily eventually Tradition opener is also very useful for the increased border expansion.

 

[Felix953]

Scouts are used for waste your time and money, you can always use your initial warrior to explore the surrounding territory, my advisor to you is to NEVER BUILD SCOUTS

 

[bjelar]

Scouts are used for waste your time and money, you can always use your initial warrior to explore the surrounding territory, my advisor to you is to NEVER BUILD SCOUTS

If you play on continents or pangea, and there are lots of city states and ruins about, scouts easily pay off. Your warrior isn't enough. Barbarians will slow him down and keep him occupied

 

[Hebbe]

I've done a lot of testing here.

While it is true you get your worker 20 turns earlier (on marathon) skipping the tradition opener, if your goal is to complete both trees, the +3 culture catch up easily eventually Tradition opener is also very useful for the increased border expansion.

The problem isn´t the turns you´re losing early on, it´s that you´re´delaying a later game SP because you now have to earn several hundred or thousands more culture (depending on how late in the game it is) because costs escalate with every new SP, delaying vital SPs with like 20 turns unless you´re earning alot of culture.

Scouts are used for waste your time and money, you can always use your initial warrior to explore the surrounding territory, my advisor to you is to NEVER BUILD SCOUTS

Occasionally two scouts may be overdoing it, but the warrior is definitely not enough unless you find yourself on an island by yourself. Otherwise you´ll definitely lose out on several city states (15 gold) and ancient ruins.

 

[bjelar]

The problem isn´t the turns you´re losing early on, it´s that you´re´delaying a later game SP because you now have to earn several hundred or thousands more culture (depending on how late in the game it is) because costs escalate with every new SP, delaying vital SPs with like 20 turns unless you´re earning alot of culture.

I agree it is only viable if you earn a lot of culture.

On immortal/deity earning a lot of culture is a good idea anyway, as defence against AIs tourism. But as everything else it is situational, of course

 

[Cicerosaurus]

One thing I do find difficult is if I hard build or steal a worker - or buy one- too early, they are limited in what they can do. That is, you need your mining, masonry or calender unless you have a lot of farming ground. Even then I have difficulty with barbs- though I do play with raging barbarians so that will not apply to a lot of other peoples situations.