East Asia Overhaul

[Dracosolon]

Unless China's stability map becomes a lot harsher, what would even cause collapse besides the Mongol invasion?

 

[Leoreth]

That's what I meant by gamey approaches to forcing a collapse.

 

[LikeNothing]

I do think this is very powerful, and it also does not live up to the name - it only grants benefits and stability, instead of reflecting the periodic instability.

Well then, it can be tweaked to be less powerful, and balanceable in the other direction:

The Power of Dynastic Cycles: When you enter a new era, your Great People thresholds reset, and you get a few turns of Anarchy (which can be ended by starting a Golden Age).

The specific # of turns of Anarchy is subject to balance.

I really like how this ties with the Golden Age UHV in both directions!

This is mechanically difficult and I don't care about Shinto special flavour. It's a very narrow UP in concept too.

I don't know enough of CIV engine to know how feasible this is, but

The Power of Tradition: When you switch to a new Civic, you continue to benefit from the old Civic you switched from for a number of turns.

Now you can choose to plan your own Meiji Restoration to be as epic and as tailored to your style as possible!

 

[trexeric]

This is mechanically difficult and I don't care about Shinto special flavour. It's a very narrow UP in concept too.

I will say that I did a Shinto URV once (which I enjoyed as a sort of espionage tutorial), and it was slightly frustrating to be unable to build Itsukushima Shrine. Think it could be a "Buddhism or Paganism" wonder? It's pretty late, so I don't think it would be snatched up by the Romans or anything.

 

[Leoreth]

That's not possible with the current implementation.

 

[Dracosolon]

It doesn't really bother me to have it as a Buddhist wonder, but it could instead require Silk or something. In addition to the coastal requirement that would essentially lock it to East Asia.

 

[Leoreth]

Why are we so concerned about this specific wonder?

 

[trexeric]

It came up

 

[BaneFire]

That's what I meant by gamey approaches to forcing a collapse.

A unique China mechanic could be something like "UP - Mandate of Heaven. [Positive effect], but barbarians spawn around cities when civics change or you enter a new era."
In the wider development, I always wondered if something like barbarian spawns generated by low stability could be interesting. Unfortunately would need to be done in a way that isn't totally snowbally/swingy.

 

[LikeNothing]

China: The Power of Dynastic Cycles: When you enter a new era, your Great People thresholds reset, and you get a few turns of Anarchy (which can be avoided by a Golden Age).

The Anarchy turns allows the player to put the Golden Ages required by the UHV to better use.

Japan: The Power of Tradition/Renovation: When you switch to a newer Civic (lower down the list), you continue to benefit from the old Civic you switched from for a number of turns.

For example, the player can somewhat simulate the Meiji Restoration by running, effectively simultaneously,

1. Monarchy + State Party
2. Citizenship + Centralism
3. Regulated Trade + Free Enterprise
4. Deification + Tolerance
5. Colonialism + Nationhood

The player can then somewhat simulate the Japanese Economic Miracle by running, effectively simultaneously,

1. State Party + Democracy
2. Centralism + Constitution
3. Free Enterprise + Public Welfare
4. Tolerance + Secularism
5. Nationhood + Multilateralism

This would be very fun!

 

[AOS9001]

I like that China one a lot. It would make the UHV much more possible without converting to Islam and building the Taj Mahal. That’s assuming China’s UHV doesn’t change in 1.18 and there aren’t more Chinese/Asian wonders added.

The Japanese idea is interesting. It could be useless if it’s only a few turns, it could be broken if it’s many turns. You’d really need to get the balance right.

 

[IrishDragon]

I know there's aversion to adding a second China civ but I'll throw this out there anyway.

Make an identical China civ that only emerges when China collapses, same units, historical areas, UP etc, something conditional lie the Byzantines but not playable. Only difference is the leader and names of the emerging civ could not be the same as the original China. So instead of collapsing into independents, it splits in 2 with a heavy diplomatic penalty against each other. The name could depend on the era or capital, for example if it happens in the Middle Ages, the Jin dynasty emerges if core China is the Song. Choose other appropriate competing dynasties for other eras. If it happens in the modern era choose 1 of ROC or PRC. If both Chinas survive going into the next era the only check is that they can't have the same name & leader.

You represent some of the massive wars and struggles that took place in China. I think the emphasis on dynastic continuity and China's '5000 years of history' can obscure the scale and magnitude of some of these wars, especially compared to somewhere more fragmented like Europe where it often forms part of a national identity. From a gameplay perspective, you keep them involved in diplomacy and trade instead of losing it all to independents. And it still represents their continuous history.

 

[Logoncal]

I see the point about China's current UP being boring and not very flashy. But giving them a high impact UP makes them very volatile and you do not want China to be volatile. Mostly you do not want China to underperform but if it's both volatile and calibrated to avoid underperforming China then by consequence you will also often get overperforming China, and that is also bad for the game.

Leoreth, you just gave me PTSD of 1.15 China. That Civ was on steroids back then.

 

[freethink]

Leoreth, you just gave me PTSD of 1.15 China. That Civ was on steroids back then.

I miss that

 

[Logoncal]

I miss that

It was fun, as China. Not when youre casually playing in America/Europe and you see chinese caravels in 1100.

 

[Cypriot]

It was fun, as China. Not when youre casually playing in America/Europe and you see chinese caravels in 1100.

Oh, just play on Paragon and you will see them researching economics in 1000.