Embarkment messes this game up

[joyous_gard]

Embarkation seems incomplete. Generals should affect ships, ships should be allowed to cover embarked units. Embarked units can't enter a city that has a ship in it.

Some tiny defense would be nice. You can't bombard an embarked unit to death, but you can just move a ship on top of it and kill it.

AI handled transports a lot better than it handles embarked units. AI unitpathing embarks units in lakes, but rarely coordinates a naval assault. When it does, the embarked units just get picked up like nothing.

 

[Howard Mahler]

The use of the term "micro-management" usually refers to playing an aspect of the game and making decisions that the particular player did not find enjoyable.

Having to carefully maneuver land units under one unit per hex would be a good example of "micro-management" to some players.

Different strokes for different folks.

Regardless, embarkation bears very little resemblance to the real world.

I think the introduction of automatic embarkment in the CiV is one of the best changes in the game. The above process of a) producing transports, b) taking the transports to the place where the units are (or taking the units to the transports), c) loading the units, d) moving the units transported to the place of landing, d ) unloading the units, and) move / attack, was too boring and required too much micro-management.

However, although this is an improvement in terms of gameplay, I think that AI is not using it correctly, so it's necessary to improve it.

 

[Ankh]

I think, you are completely missing the point. "You" may be able to protect the defenseless units. The AI won't.

Embarking attracts the AI to send their units into the range of the human player's navy. Zones of control won't help, as the AI does not protect their units, neither with nor without such zones.
In the context of the game's different sub-systems, embarkment does not work.

Yes, this is sad news.
And yes, this is just the truth.

I am? By that analogy we could just remove anything the AI can't handle and get a basic Java application as a game instead of civ.

Do I hate that I can't possible protect my transports - Yes
Do ZoC make that I can protect them - Yes
If I can protect them will that make my game experience better - Yes
Will the AI be able to the same - Properly not, but that's a hit I can take for making Embarking a more enjoyable experience for me.

 

[Polycrates]

An article that some might find interesting, with a whole bit about embarkation (though interestingly not wrt civ itself):

http://www.designer-notes.com/?p=287

Of course Civ V lacks the AI polish to pull off embarkation-based invasions, but it's a much more easily-solved problem than pulling off AI with transports, which has been successful precisely never. So fingers crossed, I guess. EDIT: nevermind the rest of this, I'm an idiot. I guess embarked units could do with some toughening.

 

[Hesha]

Regardless, embarkation bears very little resemblance to the real world.

I wouldn't be as radical with my statement, as we do have cases in history in which embarkation actually does make sense. The problem is, that embarkation is a strategy/technique exclusively employed by premodern ARMIES. In CiV we don't have those. We have groups of units (whose size/manpower we strangle enough have absolutely no information on) strictly divided by weapons. A (premodern) army on the other hand would consist of different branches (sword, spear, bow, etc.) and a supply train - those are the guys who build ships for embarkation (and siege weapons by the way). Those ships would be SOTA transports, not some form of floatation device. But we don't have armies - so embarkation doesn't really work.
On the other hand it always ennoyed me how powerful "Transports" were in Civ4... they had strength 16 I believe, but when we look at the graphics and the civilopedia entry it is obvious, that they represent those sea-un-worthy little yolks they used on D-Day. Those things with a machine gun are supposed to be twice as powerful as a 17/18th century Frigate? I don't think so...

 

[Ankh]

An article that some might find interesting, with a whole bit about embarkation (though interestingly not wrt civ itself):

http://www.designer-notes.com/?p=287

Of course Civ V lacks the AI polish to pull off embarkation-based invasions, but it's a much more easily-solved problem than pulling off AI with transports, which has been successful precisely never. So fingers crossed, I guess. Plus transports were easily one of the most tedious parts of the earlier civ games.
And I sort of feel like their vulnerability is sort of balanced by the 1UPT meaning you (and especially the AI) are never putting all your eggs in one easily-sunk basket. Yeah you might lose a unit or two, but unless your navy is massively outclassed then most of them are still going to make it (and those warships you brought along are then going to get the first chance to pound the hell out of their navy, if they're focusing on the transports). And if your navy is that outclassed, then you deserve to end up invading the sea floor. Maybe it's just my experience, but I find that embarked units seem to have enough toughness that they require 2-3 destroyer or city salvos even in the late game, which I think is probably toughness enough.

Note: You can just move your destroyer (or any military unit) over the embarked unit to instantly destroy it instead of slowly bombard it to death.

 

[Hesha]

sorry

 

[Polycrates]

Note: You can just move your destroyer (or any military unit) over the embarked unit to instantly destroy it instead of slowly bombard it to death.

Well then I feel like an idiot. Yeah, that could do with some tweaking then.

 

[Ankh]

Well then I feel like an idiot. Yeah, that could do with some tweaking then.

Don't. It took me some games before I figured that out as well. That's why its kinda annoying when a move 6-7 caravel appears from nowhere to insta gibb your embarked unit. Even if you had an escort ship standing close by.

 

[Polycrates]

Don't. It took me some games before I figured that out as well. That's why its kinda annoying when a move 6-7 caravel appears from nowhere to insta gibb your embarked unit. Even if you had an escort ship standing close by.

Well, one thing to come out of it is that in my misconception that you could only bombard embarked units, it felt pretty right - if perhaps erring slightly on the side of embarked units being too tough. They're still considerably more vulnerable than they are on land, they're hard to fully picket (fair enough, I think) and they can't fight back. I reckon removing auto-kill and lowering their anti-bombardment toughness a bit might set them just about right. It's then also an interesting dilemma for the defender - do you focus on their navy that can then hammer your ships and bombard your cities, or ignore them and risk your ships to bombard their units while they're vulnerable before they can get ashore?

 

[Biz_]

the problem is that you cannot stack units

escorting anything whether its a civilian on land or a transport on water just becomes a clickfest because you cant just put them on the same tile or move them together

 

[Yzman]

I think the solution to most problems is very easy. Embarked units should be able to stack with naval units. This way you could defend your units correctly. Basically treat them like civilian units that I can defend, since they get taken like them anyway.

 

[nokmirt]

In the game I am playing the AI invaded me by sea early on in the Classical Era. By surprise too. I pushed him back into the sea but I had a fight on my hands for a minute there. They landed 6 units, 3 spear 2 archer, and evn a catapult. So I am not sure how people are saying the AI does not attack by sea and that there so bad at it. I happened to be out of war and more prepared when the invasion struck me. I think if the AI has a weakness, it is from a reserves or follow up standpoint. You attack with all your units, but you need to follow with a second wave of reserves to support the first wave.

Then I hear this bickering about taking an embarked army and having problems invading AI beaches. First things first, you need to support your amphibious forces with escorts, anyone knows that.

I think the solution to most problems is very easy. Embarked units should be able to stack with naval units. This way you could defend your units correctly. Basically treat them like civilian units that I can defend, since they get taken like them anyway.

Why do they in real life? Of course they should not stack, have you ever played Panzer General? You can't stack in that game, but if your smart you can take Crete with minimal losses. It is no different in CIV 5. Support your embarked fleet, it is all just hex tactical combat, you'll learn it just takes time.

 

[Frozensky]

I think the solution to most problems is very easy. Embarked units should be able to stack with naval units. This way you could defend your units correctly. Basically treat them like civilian units that I can defend, since they get taken like them anyway.

as has been stated, the problem isn't protecting your units, it's the AI protecting its own units. remember, the AI can use neither embarkation nor navies atm. introducing a feature involving both doesn't do anything for the AI.

easiest solution is to remove the squishing of embarked units so the AI doesn't have to factor it in. it'll be easier from there to teach the AI to use embarked units and also to use navies. if it's using embarked units and attempting to gain naval dominance in the war theater at the same time, it should provide enough of a challenge to the player, rather than having it try to make a decision on how to use its warships specifically to protect its units.

 

[rschissler]

I love the embarkation feature...it's just great and one of the things I feel they got right in CiV. Now, the AI does not handle it correctly, no arguments there! But then everyone agrees that the AI is not great.

If the AI can't handle it, it doesn't work. So, how can you say that "it's just great and one of the things they got right in CiV"?

 

[jpboia]

If the AI can't handle it, it doesn't work. So, how can you say that "it's just great and one of the things they got right in CiV"?

I agree that right now the mechanism is still not working as intended because of the incompetence of the AI. But that doesn't mean that the concept is not good.

An improvement to make would be to treat the embarked military units as civilian units, and as such, they could share the hexs with military units.

 

[JohnnyW]

I agree that right now the mechanism is still not working as intended because of the incompetence of the AI. But that doesn't mean that the concept is not good.

You've just described civ5 in its entirety.

God idea, bad execution.

 

[jpboia]

You've just described civ5 in its entirety.

God idea, bad execution.

No, good idea, bad AI.

Are you new in the Civ community??? Vanilla games are always full of bugs and poorly implemented features!!! Give them time to release a new patch, for god's sake!

 

[JohnnyW]

No, good idea, bad AI.

Are you new in the Civ community??? Vanilla games are always full of bugs and poorly implemented features!!! Give them time to release a new patch, for god's sake!

I'm not sure why that question requires 3 question marks, especially when you can see every posters join date next to their name.

Also, I believe they have released a new patch "for god's[sic] sake!" already, which actually has made the AI worse in diplomacy. Are you new to civ5?(??)

 

[jpboia]

I'm not sure why that question requires 3 question marks, especially when you can see every posters join date next to their name.

Also, I believe they have released a new patch "for god's[sic] sake!" already, which actually has made the AI worse in diplomacy. Are you new to civ5?(??)

Sorry if I offended you, but this kind of rants about Civ happen all the time when a new Civ game is released.

We must wait for the fixes... as always.