Embassies

[joncnunn]

My game of NOT giving embassies is far enough along for some results:

It's totally ineffective against spying; at least if your capital is coastal due to the long sight range of Caravels when come out around the same time.

It does however appear to be extremely effective at avoiding having the AI trying to "colonize" your landmass.
So overall, I'd suggest for those for which having the AI stealing your techs bother you even when you have your own spy present with max promotions and all spy defense buildings for your tech that you simply turn it off until some future patch fixes the current imbalance of favoring offense over defense on advanced settings.

It does however appear to be a very good idea for those going tall to avoid establishing embassies with anyone until the game mechanic rule makes it impossible to found any cities within 6 hexes of your capital. (AI's founding a new city logic thinks it could actually work the tiles you are already working and your embassy has given them visibility of the tiles within the cultural boundary of the capital.)

 

[dashwinner]

In some ways, maybe, but not for the purposes of espionage. I played a Mayan game on small continents where I captured my continent and denied access to all remaining AI civs (no embassies and no open land near my cap). My capital was inland, so no surviving AI was able to get near it. No techs were stolen that entire game.

What about your coastal cities though? I'm guessing if you had a whole continent, you owned (not puppeted) at least 1 coastal city. The AI can spy in any city, so even if they don't spy in your capital, they'll still eventually manage to steal techs from said city. This was actually an issue for me, as like you, my capital wasn't accessible for many of the civs in my game, yet i was still getting tech stolen, and I was wondering why my spy planted in my capital wasn't doing his job. Upon closer inspection, i realized they were just all stealing from another city.

If you think about it that way, it's probably better to allow embassies. At least you only need to dedicate one spy to counter-intelligence...

 

[Biologist]

If you think about it that way, it's probably better to allow embassies. At least you only need to dedicate one spy to counter-intelligence...

I had a game recently where spies were trying to steal techs in at least two of my cities. Fortunately I was the prohibitive tech leader at that point, and could place all of my spies on defense or city states, and build the Great Firewall. I imagine that, unless the non-capital city has a huge science output, it's still better to have the AI stealing tech from a different city because it is usually slower there. If you build the National College somewhere other than your capital, that may vary.

 

[Zezima]

They also can't covet what they can't see.

Actually, from my experience, most civs are able to covet what they can't see. I'm sure many others have had instances where they just met a civ (Dido, Alexander) and checking the diplo modifiers reveals that they already have the covet modifier. I know it's happened to me plenty of times.

I think what others have said is true: the AI is aware of your location at all times. However, the sight mechanic does affect them in the sense that their spies will not be able to infiltrate your cities unless they have already been revealed of FOW.

 

[RedFuneral]

I don't think it can be said with 100% certainty what the AI 'knows' based on a different event. Likely some calculations rely on info the AI has access to, and some as if they could see the whole map.

For example the diplo modifiers seem not to take into account what the AI knows or doesn't know(that it was you building the wonder they wanted/where your lands are) but when it's calculating army movement they likely don't know where your lands are unless they've actually seen them. AIs lack coordination, they don't work based on the 'big picture' like a human does they can only work on the individual details which when put together result in a somewhat coherent picture.

Ex. A human might say "I'm going to take over the Persians I'd better research a military tech"
An AI would think more like "The Persians have good land... I'm going to invade them." "I'm a peaceful civ therefor I'm going to research a cultural tech".
The human has a goal in mind 'taking over the Persians' and can put together a strategy in how to do it. The AI declares war based on diplo modifiers(coveting land) but they don't seem to actually go into war with that goal in mind. They just roll over you if you let them and peace-out if their forces start dropping like flies.(depending again on their aggressiveness is how soon they will peace out)

Maybe I'm wrong on some points, but that should be a good example in how computers think.

Interesting how giving the AIs embassies can actually help with the spying situation. It makes sense too. In that way the AI is like a mouse falling for a mousetrap. It sees the 'cheese' but doesn't think to ask itself why it's there in the first place.

 

[Stellarnight]

Another reason why not to grant embassies so easily is to trigger the City States Quests that requires you to find the land of blah blah. Easy influence

I do feel i get invaded less with no embassies.

 

[joncnunn]

Another reason why not to grant embassies so easily is to trigger the City States Quests that requires you to find the land of blah blah. Easy influence

I do feel i get invaded less with no embassies.

That quest is still in the game in G&K??? I thought they would have taken it out when they added embassies.

 

[Browd]

Still there. But it's only triggered if you haven't discovered the civ's culture borders. So, if you've just met their scout, it may be enabled and can be satisfied by buying their embassy (or exchanging embassies).

 

[Wir0s]

I've been doing the same, mostly. I'll never give an embassy to certain civs (Russia, Mongolia, etc.) unless we've been friends for a REALLY long time, but for someone like Gandhi, who doesn't pose a big threat to rush you, an embassy can push you into the DoF threshold.

Ghandi?

Every time i have Ghandi on my game, he use to be one of the biggest warmongers and nuke lover of all times.

Maybe its just with me, but Ghandi its a big pain in the ass

 

[Dogmouth]

What about your coastal cities though? I'm guessing if you had a whole continent, you owned (not puppeted) at least 1 coastal city. The AI can spy in any city, so even if they don't spy in your capital, they'll still eventually manage to steal techs from said city. This was actually an issue for me, as like you, my capital wasn't accessible for many of the civs in my game, yet i was still getting tech stolen, and I was wondering why my spy planted in my capital wasn't doing his job. Upon closer inspection, i realized they were just all stealing from another city.

If you think about it that way, it's probably better to allow embassies. At least you only need to dedicate one spy to counter-intelligence...

The coastal cities were mostly puppets or small ICS-style cities. My capital and several other interior cities were the only cities pumping out huge amounts of science. My belief is that the AI was not able to put a spy in my capital or these other cities. With an embassy, they would have seen my capital.

The speed of the AI's tech theft depends in large part on the science output of the city which they're spying on.

 

[civ54lyfe]

I obviously have no way to prove this, but I think so. I get DoW'd noticeably less often when an enemy civ doesn't have an embassy and thus can't see my capital; from this, I'm pretty sure the AI actually has limitations in that department.

^this (and the facts that it simply multiplies your esponiage assaults, agressive GP/Missionary action)

+

They also can't covet what they can't see.

-they should do somethin positive for embassies besides friendly modifier, but in higher level games you'd want an embassy in cases for your own aggressive "soft war" needs.

 

[RedFuneral]

I had some odd behavior with the embassies in the game I was playing last night. About halfway through the Renaissance era I met the strongest civ on the other continent(got a weird game with 9 civs and 20 cs on one con with just me and the Germans on another.) When I met the AI he was friendly and we had a lot of trade deals going, which of course led to us trading embassies. The turn after his behavior changed dramatically. He immediately denounced me and became hostile.

I'm thinking it was a mix of things. I had backstabbed Germany in an earlier section of the game(which granted me tons of diplo penalties and a round of denouncement). Before the AI knew where I was he was friendly possibly thinking I'd make a good ally, after he found out I was on the other side of the world he promptly turned on me.(which gained him points with the other civs I'm sure being that I'm universally disliked) He also started bullying the CS under my protection saying that 'I was in no situation to stop him' and he's right. Is this smart AI or just a coincidence? I haven't seen the AI take distance into account before this though I rarely play the multi-continent maps.

Of course right after the denouncement happened his enemy(and my trading partner) Monty asked me to DoW him which I did. Being that this guy was in the middle of a massive landmass across the world neither of us were in any position to attack one another. The war ended 20 turns later with him paying me 450g and 15gpt. That makes little sense to me as he was neither weaker than me nor was I threatening him one bit. Might have something to do with my CS allies I suppose, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[VladTepes]

I never open to anyone because they'll convert my capital without losing strength.

 

[Dogmouth]

This morning I was playing an Inca game where I denied embassies until I wanted to start making RAs. I had an extremely strange experience with Polynesia. We were friendly, I had a number of possitive modifiers, a DoF, etc. I then sold him my embassy and made an RA. The next turn he denounces me (wasting both of our RA down payments and the 25g for my embassy). Two turns later he masses troops on my border and Hiawatha warns me that he's plotting against me.

I guess he started coveting my stuff as soon as he saw my capital. However, it would have taken him almost 30 turns to get to my capital due to rough terrain and the Great Wall, which I captured from Ramses in an early war (before my DoF with Polynesia). Also, my capital was burried in mountains and hills, so I would have thoroughly trashed him if he tried to sieze it. Sigh... stupid AI.

 

[joncnunn]

Ghandi?

Every time i have Ghandi on my game, he use to be one of the biggest warmongers and nuke lover of all times.

Maybe its just with me, but Ghandi its a big pain in the ass

There is a modifier dealing with AI building nukes. Ghandi indeed has the highest rating, far higher than any other civ.
The rumor is that it was an inhouse joke that was supposed to be changed to a real value later. Only that never occurred and it was shipped that way and has never been patched.