Expanding of Religions

[Greywulf]

Currently we have 12 religions to pick from in the game, which in itself is a fairly decent number, but historically and in consideration of the diversity of civilizations, this really could, and perhaps should be expanded on. Here is a link to the list of religions we now have, and which leaders prefer which religions when they are AI: http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Religion_(Civ6)

A good example of this would be if Jainism was added to the list, which would mean that Chandraguta would be able to more accurately select his religion of choice, as apparently he became a Jain later on in life. Also, if the Celts are added to the game, then perhaps Druidry could be added, which would make sense for that civ. Tengriism could be included, which would represent well the ancient religion of Mongolia. The Inca and Mapuche could prefer Sun Worship. The Aztec and Maya could prefer Feathered Serpent. There's also other religions that could be considered, like Mandaeism, Yezidism, and Baha'i.

Christendom has been divided into 3 religions for the game, which does make sense (although considering how many denominations are other there that do not fit into those 3 categories, it would even make sense to expand on that as well). Other religions that also have historically been divided, have not had the same for them in this game. Islam could be divided into Sunni (E.g. Arabia), Shia (E.g. Persia), and Sufi (E.g. Turkey) ~ and possibly more. Buddhism can be divided into its 3 main categories Theravada (E.g. Khmer), Mahayana (E.g. Japan), and Vajrayana (E.g. Tibet). Hinduism could be divided into Vishnuvism and Shavism, or more than that.

You may argue, what of those who are part of a religion, but not part of any of the major denominations listed? Well the same argument can be raised for Christendom, which is not only represented by 3 denominations, but millions of people identify as Christians that are not classified among those three.

***

So just putting it all down so far...

Current religions/leader preferences:

Buddhism / Hojo Tokimune (Japan), Jayavarman VII (Khmer)
Catholicism / Catherine (France), Frederick Barbarossa (Germany), Jadwiga (Poland), Pedro II (Brasil), Philip II (Spain)
Confucianism / [none]
Hinduism / Gandhi (India), Gitarja (Indonesia)
Islam / Saladin (Arabia)
Judaism / [none]
Eastern Orthodoxy / Peter (Russia), (assuming Tamar (Georgia))
Protestantism / Harald Hardrada (Norway), Teddy Roosevelt (America), Victoria (England), (assuming Wilhelmina (Netherlands))
Shinto / [none]
Sikhism / [none]
Taoism / Qin Shi Huang (China)
Zoroastrianism / Cyrus (Persia)

Current total: 12 religions

Potential religions/existing leader preferences that make sense:

Jainism / Chandragupta
Tengriism / Genghis Khan
Kemetism/Presedjet / Cleopatra, Amanitore
Hellenism / Pericles, Gorgo, Alexander
Teotl (Tlateomatiliztli) / Montezuma


Thinking about it...
If we want China's secondary leader to be female (which I'm all for), then Confucianism won't be their chosen religion (Confucianism teaches that men should lead women, so a female leader would look very odd in such a religious society). Qin Shi Huang became opposed to Confucianism too, so it looks doubtful that this religion will get a leader choosing it as their first choice.

If we look at the civilization rather than the leader, this changes things, especially if each civ (or some civs) will pick from 2 religions at random as their first choice, rather than only one ~ or, in the case of only one civ/leader having that religion, then perhaps they can have one preference. (I tried to organize them by religions, and color code them just so it is easier to study the list, and I tried to make sure that each civ can have 2 choices ~ please note that I tried to do so respectfully.)

Spanish / Catholicism or Islam
Polish / Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy
Aztecs / Teotl (Tlateomatiliztli) or Catholicism
Mapuche / Catholicism or Intiism
Romans / Catholicism or Hellenism
Brazilians / Catholicism or Protestantism
Kongolese / Catholicism or Protestantism
Cree / Catholicism or Protestantism
Scottish / Druidism or Catholicism
French / Catholicism or Druidism
English / Druidism or Catholicism
Germans / Protestantism or Catholicism
Dutch / Protestantism or Catholicism
Americans / Protestantism or Catholicism
Australians / Protestantism or Catholicism
Zulu / Protestantism or Catholicism
Norwegians / Asatruism/Forn Siðr or Protestantism
Scythians / Eastern Orthodoxy or Tengriism
Macedonians / Eastern Orthodoxy or Hellenism
Greeks / Hellenism or Eastern Orthodoxy
Russians / Eastern Orthodoxy or Islam
Georgians / Eastern Orthodoxy or Islam
Egyptians / Kemetism/Pesedjet or Islam
Nubians / Kemetism/Pesedjet or Islam
Arabs / Islam or Kemetism/Pesedjet
Persians / Zoroastrianism or Islam
Sumerians / Zoroastrianism or Islam
Indonesians / Islam or Hinduism
Indians / Hinduism or Sikhism (Chandragupta: Jainism)
Chinese / Confucianism or Daoism
Koreans / Confucianism or Buddhism
Japanese / Shintoism or Buddhism
Mongols / Tengriism or Buddhism
Khmer / Buddhism or Islam

~ Some religions get a lot more attention than others.

To add to that, here's a few potential civs I keep hearing about from the fans...

Ottomans / Islam or Eastern Orthodoxy
Moroccans / Islam or Catholicism
Malians / Islam or Catholicism
Ethiopians / Eastern Orthodoxy or Judaism
Byzantines / Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism
Chola/Tamil / Hinduism or Islam
Swedes / Protestantism or Asatruism/Forn Siðr
Finns / Asatruism/Forn Siðr or Protestantism
Celts / Druidism or Catholicism
Vietnamese / Buddhism or Catholicism
Israelis / Judaism or Kemetism/Pesedjet
Maya / Teotl (Tlateomatiliztli)or Catholicism
Inca / Intiism or Catholicism

With this entire list as above, that would make it 20 religions in the game, and it would mean that every one of those 20 religions can be picked as a first choice for a civ.

I thought I would focus in on my idea of four suggested brand new religion additions to the game, and show what symbols they would most likely have...

Scottish (also Celts) / Druidism
English / Druidism
French / Druidism
Norwegians (also Swedes, Finns, Danes) / Asatruism/Forn Siðr
Romans / Hellenism
Macedonians / Hellenism
Greeks / Hellenism
Egyptians / Kemetism/Pesedjet
Nubians / Kemetism/Pesedjet
Aztec (also Maya, Olmec) / Teotl (Tlateomatiliztli)
Mapuche (also Inca) / Intiism

~ As you can see, each of these four already have at least one civ who could potentially select them as their first religion.


Celtic Druidism symbol:


Norse Asatruism/Forn Siðr symbol:


Greco-Roman Hellenism symbol:


Egyptian Kemetism/Pesedjetsymbol:


Mesoamerican Teotl (Tlateomatiliztli)/Feathered Serpent symbol:


Inca Intiism religion symbol:


That would bring the number to a nice round 20, and they each could have a civ prefer them. These are all classical religions of history that are still present in some form in modern culture.
So yeah, those 6, plus Jainism and Tengriism, are what I would like to see added to the game. What would you like to see?

***

Some other potential religions (and possible civs):

Oriental Orthodoxy (Ethiopia, Egypt)
Baha'i (Persia)
Yezidism (Sumer? Babylon?)
Mandaeism (Sumer? Babylon?)
Rastafarianism (Ethiopia)
Unitarianism (Poland? England? America?)
Mormonism (America)
Cao Dai (Vietnam)
Tenrikyo (Japan)
Wicca (England)
Angakkunngurniq (Inuit)
Wakan Tanka (Sioux. Cree?)
Orenda (Iroquois)
Nzambiism (Kongo)
Amatongo (Zulu)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm surprised that Jainism wasn't in from the beginning, especially since that is one of the major world religions missing from the game that are still practiced by a number of people.
I might be in the minority but I don't necessarily think we need any more options other than Jainism. I wouldn't necessary complain though if they decided to separate Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. It's just not a big deal for me. At the same time if they wanted to add Tengrism for Mongolia and some other regional religions that's okay as well. Others like Druidry and Animism are already kind of represented in different pantheons anyway.
Maybe it's just me not really caring sometimes and say it's fine if the Aztecs will want to go Catholic before Spain does so they have to become Jewish. I like historical accuracy on things a lot of the time, especially when it comes to the design of a civ, but when choosing a religion I could care less. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Greywulf]

I'm surprised that Jainism wasn't in from the beginning, especially since that is one of the major world religions missing from the game that are still practiced by a number of people.
I might be in the minority but I don't necessarily think we need any more options other than Jainism. I wouldn't necessary complain though if they decided to separate Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. It's just not a big deal for me. At the same time if they wanted to add Tengrism for Mongolia and some other regional religions that's okay as well. Others like Druidry and Animism are already kind of represented in different pantheons anyway.
Maybe it's just me not really caring sometimes and say it's fine if the Aztecs will want to go Catholic before Spain does so they have to become Jewish. I like historical accuracy on things a lot of the time, especially when it comes to the design of a civ, but when choosing a religion I could care less. But that's just my opinion.

Fair enough. I do like variety and representation, and I also have a thing for Theology. I think the combination of those interests have lead me to consider this, and I think it is something for at least the Devs to take seriously, due to how controversial they could potentially make it. I don't wish to add to the controversy, but perhaps adding more representation of major historical real world religions would even reduce some controversy? One can only hope. I know that if there are any Jains out there that actually play this game, I bet seeing their religion represented would make them happy ~ and would make sense for Chandragupta. If we did add another, that would open the door for even more, so we might as well think about which ones would be most ideal in the game, but hopefully not more controversial.

 

[halfhalfharp]

Currently we have 12 religions to pick from in the game, which in itself is a fairly decent number, but historically and in consideration of the diversity of civilizations, this really could, and perhaps should be expanded on. Here is a link to the list of religions we now have, and which leaders prefer which religions when they are AI: http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Religion_(Civ6)

A good example of this would be if Jainism was added to the list, which would mean that Chandraguta would be able to more accurately select his religion of choice, as apparently he became a Jain later on in life. Also, if the Celts are added to the game, then perhaps Druidry could be added, which would make sense for that civ. Shamanism could be included, which would represent well the ancient religion of Mongolia. The Inca could prefer Animism. There's also other religions that could be considered, like Mandaeism, Yezidism, and Baha'i.

Christendom has been divided into 3 religions for the game, which does make sense (although considering how many denominations are other there that do not fit into those 3 categories, it would even make sense to expand on that as well). Other religions that also have historically been divided, have not had the same for them in this game. Islam could be divided into Sunni (E.g. Arabia), Shia (E.g. Persia), and Sufi (E.g. Turkey) ~ and possibly more. Buddhism can be divided into its 3 main categories Theravada (E.g. Khmer), Mahayana (E.g. Japan), and Vajrayana (E.g. Tibet). Hinduism could be divided into Vishnuvism and Shavism, or more than that.

You may argue, what of those who are part of a religion, but not part of any of the major denominations listed? Well the same argument can be raised for Christendom, which is not only represented by 3 denominations, but millions of people identify as Christians that are not classified among those three.

I dont think they may attempt to detailize the religions into something so specific like Sunni and Shia.

The point of freely selecting believes for religion in the game, despite to fit the religious victory, is to prevent making the them too realistic.

Making them too specific may arise unnecessary dispute regarding their relevance, which may in turn, getting the Game Series into real religous war.

I dun want to see the company being bombed by religious extremists before the next release of DLC. LOL

I think the system that allows us to name our own religion can satisfy your purpose. You know, you can name it "Denouncing Venice" or whatever. But they can include more religion symbols for us to choose, I think this is more important.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Currently we have 12 religions to pick from in the game, which in itself is a fairly decent number, but historically and in consideration of the diversity of civilizations, this really could, and perhaps should be expanded on. Here is a link to the list of religions we now have, and which leaders prefer which religions when they are AI: http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Religion_(Civ6)

A good example of this would be if Jainism was added to the list, which would mean that Chandraguta would be able to more accurately select his religion of choice, as apparently he became a Jain later on in life. Also, if the Celts are added to the game, then perhaps Druidry could be added, which would make sense for that civ. Shamanism could be included, which would represent well the ancient religion of Mongolia. The Inca could prefer Animism. There's also other religions that could be considered, like Mandaeism, Yezidism, and Baha'i.

Christendom has been divided into 3 religions for the game, which does make sense (although considering how many denominations are other there that do not fit into those 3 categories, it would even make sense to expand on that as well). Other religions that also have historically been divided, have not had the same for them in this game. Islam could be divided into Sunni (E.g. Arabia), Shia (E.g. Persia), and Sufi (E.g. Turkey) ~ and possibly more. Buddhism can be divided into its 3 main categories Theravada (E.g. Khmer), Mahayana (E.g. Japan), and Vajrayana (E.g. Tibet). Hinduism could be divided into Vishnuvism and Shavism, or more than that.

You may argue, what of those who are part of a religion, but not part of any of the major denominations listed? Well the same argument can be raised for Christendom, which is not only represented by 3 denominations, but millions of people identify as Christians that are not classified among those three.

Jainism & Tengriism were both in Civilization V's roster of religions.....so I am very surprised they didn't make the cut for Civ6. I am curious, though. what religious buildings & abilities do you think should be in the game to represent Jainism, Tengriism, Animism & Shamanism.....if any?

As for splitting Islam in 3, I can take that or leave it. I feel its more important to get the less Monotheistic religions represented first .

 

[Greywulf]

I dont think they may attempt to detailize the religions into something so specific like Sunni and Shia.

The point of freely selecting believes for religion in the game, despite to fit the religious victory, is to prevent making the them too realistic.

Making them too specific may arise unnecessary dispute regarding their relevance, which may in turn, getting the Game Series into real religous war.

I dun want to see the company being bombed by religious extremists before the next release of DLC. LOL

I think the system that allows us to name our own religion can satisfy your purpose. You know, you can name it "Denouncing Venice" or whatever. But they can include more religion symbols for us to choose, I think this is more important.

Yes, I wouldn't want it to cause them any trouble. Just thinking about this idea, which may or may not be a good idea in the first place. For those of us who are tolerant to all religions, it certainly isn't a problem.

I do like the system that lets us make our own religions, that is very cool and creative. I think that they could expand on that more too, such as adding more symbols to represent said religions. Maybe not the most important thing to focus on, but thought it would be fun to nonetheless.

Jainism & Tengriism were both in Civilization V's roster of religions.....so I am very surprised they didn't make the cut for Civ6. I am curious, though. what religious buildings & abilities do you think should be in the game to represent Jainism, Tengriism, Animism & Shamanism.....if any?

As for splitting Islam in 3, I can take that or leave it. I feel its more important to get the less Monotheistic religions represented first .

That is interesting that this time they have excluded Jainism and Tengriism. I have to wonder why they did this...Did they ever say anything regarding this? Maybe they have a particular reason, like people were offended by the inclusion (how do Jains feel about their religion being represented in a game with other religions?).

Valid question about buildings and abilities. I hadn't thought that far ahead, but would be good to consider those things as well. I'm open for suggestions while I think on it.

Splitting Hinduism and Buddhism into denominations certainly would contribute to adding more religions that are not Monotheistic into the game, as would adding Druidry or Wicca (especially Druidry out of those two), Animism and Shamanism, and come to think of it, Asatruism too ~ which would be interesting for a Norse civ. That being said, as a significant number of major Monotheistic religions and denominations also exist, and most of the world's population identify as members of Monotheistic religions (even if their religion bends the rules a bit in that area), it makes sense to include a bunch of those as well...I won't argue as to what is more important here, especially with such a sensitive subject. As it stands right now in the game, only a Monotheistic religion has been divided into 3. All the Polytheistic religions haven't been divided yet.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

That is interesting that this time they have excluded Jainism and Tengriism. I have to wonder why they did this...Did they ever say anything regarding this? Maybe they have a particular reason, like people were offended by the inclusion (how do Jains feel about their religion being represented in a game with other religions?)

The fact that Chandragupta and Mongolia are both going to be in this expansion though could be the case that they possibly might bring back at least Jainism and Tengrism, and are just hiding it. In the first look Chandragupta was Hinduism but we do have yet to see the actual religion choosing screen. I'm not totally optimistic though.
Also Jainism symbol has a swastika in it, but they don't have to use that part just the hand.

 

[Greywulf]

(Moved to OP for convenience)

 

[Naktis]

what ? no paganism ? they should add it(and the civ for it)...sadly the crusade won against it.

 

[Greywulf]

what ? no paganism ? they should add it(and the civ for it)...sadly the crusade won against it.

Depending on your classification, quite a few of the religions already in the game are called "pagan". There is room for more of course, and plenty of religions out there that could potentially be added. In favor of harmonizing with civs in the game, some religions may be considered in connection with certain civs, like Scandinavian civs with Asatruism, and Greek civs with Hellenism...both pagan religions.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I think we need to avoid a catch-all name like Paganism, as it has long been a derogatory term used by Christians to describe any "primitive" religions that came before Christianity. Better to find out what the people called their beliefs & use those names.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Also, to an extent, certain pre-Monotheistic religions are represented by your Pantheon.

 

[Greywulf]

I think we need to avoid a catch-all name like Paganism, as it has long been a derogatory term used by Christians to describe any "primitive" religions that came before Christianity. Better to find out what the people called their beliefs & use those names.

I searched for the proper names of different pagan religions, such as Kemetism, Hellenism, Asatruism, and Druidism, plus there's Tengriism and Jainism from Civ V. I think that adds to the diversity within the game, giving real world history more representation, and provides players with more choice (that would bring the total to 18 religions, rather than just 12). I think those 6 religions would be ideal as well because they can be matched up with civs so that they can be potentially chosen as a first choice by AI civs. They shouldn't be controversial either, I don't think.
On second thought to splitting other religions, like Christendom, some may be quite controversial, like if we were to split up Islam into Sunni and Shia, so I aimed more for new religions instead.

 

[Greywulf]

(Moved to OP for convenience)

 

[Greywulf]

Does anybody know what the Aztecs called their religion? Or what the Maya called their religion? That could represent both as one religion easily. And also what the Inca called their religion? Those could also be interesting additions for those civs!

 

[Greywulf]

Trying to find a name for both Inca and Mesoamerican religions, either what they called themselves, or what the Spanish called them, or what we call them now.

The Inca worshiped many gods, but the most important one was Inti, the sun god, who the Inca religion symbol is based on. They worshiped him in the Temple of the Sun, and sun worship was an important part of their worship. Still need help with this one, but for now will called it "Sun Worship" for convenience.

The Aztec believed in a legendary ancestral home called Aztlan, which is where we get the name "Aztec" from. They also worshiped many gods, one of which was called the serpent god "Quetzalcoatl" (known to the Maya as "Kukulkan", also meaning feathered serpent), who they believed created humankind. Potentially the religion for both the Aztec and Maya could simply be called "Feathered Serpent", which would be able to use the same symbol.

~ Edited OP to include these 2.

 

[Zaarin]

Personally, I think two things separate a religion from a pantheon belief:
A) centralization and state support
B) having influenced more than one civilization

Many of these proposals meet A but fail B. Egyptian polytheism never spread beyond Egypt; druidism never spread beyond Gaul and maybe Britannia; Aztec polytheism never spread beyond the Aztec; Mayan polytheism (which was in fact quite different from Aztec religion, despite some superficial similarities) never spread beyond the Maya; Mesopotamian polytheism arguably makes the cut: the Sumerians and Babylonians had many gods in common, and these gods also became somewhat fashionable in Canaan--on the other hand, there were a lot of differences as well, in particular the shift from Sumerian emphasis on the trio of An/Ea/Enki to Marduk, god of Babylon.

That being said, I think there are some major religions that should be added: Oriental Orthodoxy, Jainism, Tengriism (which makes the cut thanks to its being spread far and wide by the Mongols), the Cult of Isis (the biggest of the mystery religions, except maybe Mithraism, which was a sect of Zoroastrianism), Manichaeism, and Neo-Platonism (in early Imperial Rome, this was one of the major contenders for "the big religion," along with Manichaeism and Christianity--Christianity won). Of these, Jainism and Tengriism have leaders who would favor them right now; Ethiopia would add a leader to favor Oriental Orthodoxy. The others would join the list alongside Judaism, Sikhism, Confucianism, and Shinto with no leaders favoring them (though conceivably leaders could be found in the future for Confucianism and Shinto).

 

[Greywulf]

Personally, I think two things separate a religion from a pantheon belief:
A) centralization and state support
B) having influenced more than one civilization

Many of these proposals meet A but fail B. Egyptian polytheism never spread beyond Egypt; druidism never spread beyond Gaul and maybe Britannia; Aztec polytheism never spread beyond the Aztec; Mayan polytheism (which was in fact quite different from Aztec religion, despite some superficial similarities) never spread beyond the Maya; Mesopotamian polytheism arguably makes the cut: the Sumerians and Babylonians had many gods in common, and these gods also became somewhat fashionable in Canaan--on the other hand, there were a lot of differences as well, in particular the shift from Sumerian emphasis on the trio of An/Ea/Enki to Marduk, god of Babylon.

That being said, I think there are some major religions that should be added: Oriental Orthodoxy, Jainism, Tengriism (which makes the cut thanks to its being spread far and wide by the Mongols), the Cult of Isis (the biggest of the mystery religions, except maybe Mithraism, which was a sect of Zoroastrianism), Manichaeism, and Neo-Platonism (in early Imperial Rome, this was one of the major contenders for "the big religion," along with Manichaeism and Christianity--Christianity won). Of these, Jainism and Tengriism have leaders who would favor them right now; Ethiopia would add a leader to favor Oriental Orthodoxy. The others would join the list alongside Judaism, Sikhism, Confucianism, and Shinto with no leaders favoring them (though conceivably leaders could be found in the future for Confucianism and Shinto).

I appreciate your input here, and what you say makes a lot of sense. As for failing B criteria, I do think there are some notable things to mention: Egyptian polytheism did spread beyond Egypt, as it spread to Nubia (which now is represented in the game), and probably had some influence beyond that. Granted, that's not very far, but it does mean that the religion itself was in more than one civilization. Druidism is similar, where it was practiced in both Gaul and Britannia. You make a good point regarding Mesoamerican religions, and I did realize that these are not really the same religion, but more for the fact that they are in at least some ways strikingly similar, so must be related beliefs somewhere along the line, including sharing the same serpent god, and probably sharing other gods as well. It is also more convenient to have the same title religion represent them both, and they did use the same symbol in their religion anyway. If we look at it that way, then the fact that these 2 civilizations, plus plenty of others neighboring them, worshiped this "same" religion, and therefore would pass B. Even if we do not accept these two religions represented as one, and only consider say Aztec religion, we can still safely say that it was a religion influenced other civilizations nearby.
Good suggestion about Mesopotamian religion...that does sound like another candidate that could fit in nicely into Civ 6! We wouldn't happen to have a name for that? Having no distinct name is the problem that I found with the religions of the pre-Colombian Americas, especially Inca religion.
Also like your other suggestions for religions too! One of the interesting things about religion is that there are just so many out there, and one could spend their life learning about them all, and by the end of it still not know all there is to know.

 

[Zaarin]

@Greywulf Probably the best candidate for including a New World religion is the Green Corn Dance, practiced throughout the Southeast (and somewhat in the East in general). One might also make a case for Ghost Dance, I guess, though it was kind of short lived.

 

[Greywulf]

@Greywulf Probably the best candidate for including a New World religion is the Green Corn Dance, practiced throughout the Southeast (and somewhat in the East in general). One might also make a case for Ghost Dance, I guess, though it was kind of short lived.

It would be nice to have a Northern Native American religion represented as well, which quite a few potential civs could have as their preference. It seems a little odd to me from a historical perspective that Native American civs choose a Christian religion as their first choice, not that there is anything wrong with that per se, and certainly that is largely the case in the Post-Colombian Americas, but I think they could have some representation of their actual historical religions too.
I haven't thought of the Green Corn Dance, Ghost Dance, Sun Dance, etc., as a religion, but more of a ceremony or festival within a religion (perhaps it would be like calling Wicca "Samhain" or "Beltane", for example?), but then again there may be difficulty finding names for Northern Native American religions too, just like it is hard to find names for the Mesoamerican and South American Pre-Colombian religions.
What about Wakan Tanka, Midewiwin, or Longhouse?

Also, what about "Code of Laws" as the name for the Mesopotamian religion?