Feedback : Order

[Gokudo01]

hi I was looking for the order post but there wasn't any so I create it

I've just finished a domination game with denmark(standard speed, standard size).
I couldn't pick my usual Autocracy because my numero uno foe, Rome, had already picked it. So I chose Order because it supposed to be the second valid choice for domination.

And man, It was really disappointing. the endgame was a shore.
Yes you can get your cities up and running faster and you save lot of unhappiness when you annex but who wants to annex another city when you have already got 30+ ? micro management demon, Stay in hell please. Even queuing building is a shore at this point.

I understand that getting your building faster is clearly a great advantage(leaving you more time to raise armies/wonders/projects) but there is no good side bonus except the no partisan for razing away cities. (resettlement)

I think I miss free Airport the most. You can produce your units everywhere and brings them in, where they are needed, near any cities, puppet or not.

With order, You have to move them, watch out for the eventual ambush and lose so much time on hills,forest,jungle, rivers and ocean. It's so boring.

People will tell me that you can construct airport. And I will answer yes but it's so late. You can get Air-supremacy way before, sometimes at modern era.

So to be clear, I don't want more power in Order, I want more utility :

Being able to use enemies' roads, movement ignoring terrain cost, etc ...

But something that helps you close the game when you are pursuing domination.

 

[JungleBucks]

So to be clear, I don't want more power in Order, I want more utility :

Being able to use enemies' roads, movement ignoring terrain cost, etc ...

But something that helps you close the game when you are pursuing domination.

All ideologies lack some form of utility.
Autocracy is garbage for a scientific victory and has little use in diplomacy.
Order is great for science and infrastructure, but that's about it.
Freedom is great for specialist and generating gold, but has little in the way of infrastructure and domination.

If ideologies had utility, there'd be little difficulty in making the choice you need. If you want something to assist in war, go autocracy, if you're not going to go for autocracy however, you'll need to deal with the strengths and weaknesses of whatever alternative you choose.

 

[Zanteogo]

So to be clear, I don't want more power in Order, I want more utility :

Being able to use enemies' roads, movement ignoring terrain cost, etc ...

But something that helps you close the game when you are pursuing domination.

That's not what order is supposed to be good with.

It already has some conquest policies mixed in, but it's main focus is on internal improvement.

 

[mavol6]

All ideologies lack some form of utility.
Autocracy is garbage for a scientific victory and has little use in diplomacy.
Order is great for science and infrastructure, but that's about it.
Freedom is great for specialist and generating gold, but has little in the way of infrastructure and domination.

If ideologies had utility, there'd be little difficulty in making the choice you need. If you want something to assist in war, go autocracy, if you're not going to go for autocracy however, you'll need to deal with the strengths and weaknesses of whatever alternative you choose.

autocracy is good for diplomacy, i had a good time getting alliances by gifting units and since units are cheaper (i forgot which tenet) i could create plenty of diplomats (just imagine autocracy with industry).

their unique national building is not great for votes though (1 vote for each capital you own) but i guess its for balance.

in my opinion autocracy is great if there is a another civ competing for city states and you have a hard time keeping yours, it already helps with war if you want to wipe out a problematic civ and get all city states for yourself.

but those points comes from me, i just play the 5-6 difficulties lol.

 

[Gokudo01]

That's not what order is supposed to be good with.

It already has some conquest policies mixed in, but it's main focus is on internal improvement.

Order has already got utilities, but it's almost useless for domination. Don't tell me that you waste one point in guerilla warfare for its defensive bonus if you are not pursuing domination ?

I just want to make the few utilities that order gets better. I don't want to make order like autocracy or a major revamp.

I think Guerilla warfare should be tweaked and/or party leadership should be totally revamp for something more domination style. I don't think people will really miss it because I can't remember the last time I thought

- "It was the right choice for my nation."

After all, Order is supposed to be good for Tourism, Science and Domination victories.

 

[Gazebo]

Order has already got utilities, but it's almost useless for domination. Don't tell me that you waste one point in guerilla warfare for its defensive bonus if you are not pursuing domination ?

I just want to make the few utilities that order gets better. I don't want to make order like autocracy or a major revamp.

I think Guerilla warfare should be tweaked and/or party leadership should be totally revamp for something more domination style. I don't think people will really miss it because I can't remember the last time I thought

- "It was the right choice for my nation."

After all, Order is supposed to be good for Tourism, Science and Domination victories.

Order is specifically oriented towards Science first, Tourism second, defensive wars third, and diplomacy/conquest last.

Autocracy is specifically oriented offensive wars first, diplomacy second, tourism third, and defensive wars/science last.

Freedom is specifically oriented towards diplomacy first, science second, tourism third, war (offensive/defensive) last.

 

[Gokudo01]

Order is specifically oriented towards Science first, Tourism second, defensive wars third, and diplomacy/conquest last.

Autocracy is specifically oriented offensive wars first, diplomacy second, tourism third, and defensive wars/science last.

Freedom is specifically oriented towards diplomacy first, science second, tourism third, war (offensive/defensive) last.

Sorry Gazebo, I didn't see that you answered my post. Before starting, if I seem harsh, bold or mean, it's not my intention I'm just here to confront our points of view.

1 - Why does Order have the domination icon when you are able to choose it?! Because it's clearly misleading in the current iteration. Order, as it stands, is at the same level for diplomacy and domination victories.

2 - I'm sorry but defensive wars are not a victory condition
And freedom have got nice tool for "defensive wars" too : Their Finest Hour, Volunteer army that you could get at industrial era and Arsenal of Democracy which gives you the full Authority scaling bonus". It doesn't count as one of their attribute.

3 - At least, Each last(lvl 3) tenet should be dedicated to the victory condition that the ideology is supposed to deliver :
Freedom : Media culture( Tourism), Space Procurement (Science) and Treaty Organisation ( Diplomacy).

But for Order, I fail to understand how Iron curtain helps you for domination victory better than science or tourism. Everybody likes better internal trade route and few free golds are always nice.
That leaves free Courthouse upon capture which is kind of underwhelming for domination because you want to capture as few as possible for obvious reasons :

A - Policy Cost
B - Unhappiness control
C - Real Life Boredom : it's boring to manage 20-30 cities manually. ( I miss endless legend governor when I pursue domination victory )

Conclusion : Whatever happens, I just wanted to point out an issue. Fixing it is another problem because our time, resources and possibilities are not unlimited and I can understand that you are reluctant to add any changes.
But you can't tell me, there is no issue when Order can't clearly support one of the three victory conditions that it should deliver.
Or
Remove the icon of domination victory from the ideology choice.

 

[Gazebo]

Sorry Gazebo, I didn't see that you answered my post. Before starting, if I seem harsh, bold or mean, it's not my intention I'm just here to confront our points of view.

1 - Why does Order have the domination icon when you are able to choose it?! Because it's clearly misleading in the current iteration. Order, as it stands, is at the same level for diplomacy and domination victories.

2 - I'm sorry but defensive wars are not a victory condition
And freedom have got nice tool for "defensive wars" too : Their Finest Hour, Volunteer army that you could get at industrial era and Arsenal of Democracy which gives you the full Authority scaling bonus". It doesn't count as one of their attribute.

3 - At least, Each last(lvl 3) tenet should be dedicated to the victory condition that the ideology is supposed to deliver :
Freedom : Media culture( Tourism), Space Procurement (Science) and Treaty Organisation ( Diplomacy).

But for Order, I fail to understand how Iron curtain helps you for domination victory better than science or tourism. Everybody likes better internal trade route and few free golds are always nice.
That leaves free Courthouse upon capture which is kind of underwhelming for domination because you want to capture as few as possible for obvious reasons :

A - Policy Cost
B - Unhappiness control
C - Real Life Boredom : it's boring to manage 20-30 cities manually. ( I miss endless legend governor when I pursue domination victory )

Conclusion : Whatever happens, I just wanted to point out an issue. Fixing it is another problem because our time, resources and possibilities are not unlimited and I can understand that you are reluctant to add any changes.
But you can't tell me, there is no issue when Order can't clearly support one of the three victory conditions that it should deliver.
Or
Remove the icon of domination victory from the ideology choice.

Order's internal productivity and wide-growth bonuses give you a pretty potent military-industrial complex. Order makes up for its lack of combat bonuses with this (and is why it is considered a potential for conquest victory). It's the preeminent wide ideology, and conquest always goes wide by its very nature.

In short, nothing wrong with Order, at all (Ideologies are locked in, gameplay-wise, barring any bugs).
G

 

[Gokudo01]

Order's internal productivity and wide-growth bonuses give you a pretty potent military-industrial complex. Order makes up for its lack of combat bonuses with this (and is why it is considered a potential for conquest victory). It's the preeminent wide ideology, and conquest always goes wide by its very nature.

In short, nothing wrong with Order, at all (Ideologies are locked in, gameplay-wise, barring any bugs).
G

okay boss it was an Order intervention

 

[BliTTzZ]

I didn't want to create a new thread just for just few thoughts about Order ideology.

Academy of Sciences.
Illiteracy reduction is nice, but almost every time when I have an opportunity to choose my first level 2 tenet, my empire already has public schools in every city.
The same I can say about Worker Faculties and Party Leadership: you already have factories in all cities and +2 additional yeilds are nothing when Colonists come into play.

These tenets come too late even if you're focusing on culture a lot and your empire is not very big.

 

[wobuffet]

Order is specifically oriented towards Science first, Tourism second, defensive wars third, and diplomacy/conquest last.

Autocracy is specifically oriented offensive wars first, diplomacy second, tourism third, and defensive wars/science last.

Freedom is specifically oriented towards diplomacy first, science second, tourism third, war (offensive/defensive) last.

Good to know! Maybe I'm forgetting, but I feel like this should be in the tooltip text but isn't.

 

[tu_79]

Good to know! Maybe I'm forgetting, but I feel like this should be in the tooltip text but isn't.

Well, you can read descriptions on all tenets before picking one, so you can realise if that is going to work for you.