Fifth SP Tree for Cultural Wins

[tommynt]

when the AI realizes how close you are to winning

loled - people just dont stop thinking ai works as they think it SHOULD work ..

 

[pilot00]

Liberty GA is usually a part of perma GA.


I don't know what OP wants, but he asks what's worth and that's the answer he gets. I also don't know how you can say that GP is nothing and finally it doesn't have to be a fifth tree, since other than Freedom and maybe Tradition you want to mix them.

I think I need to clarify .

Yeah the Liberty GA can be part of it but chances are you entered into a plan of generating great artists consistently since you build the Luvre so...

I didn't mean that a GP is trash. I said that by the time you complete freedom (and assuming you made...the rational choice of going rationalism before that) the Great whatever is too little too late. Perhaps if you take a great engineer to speed up the Sydney opera house, but then again meh.

As to the OP I think its quite clear what he wants. Opinions on the 4th-5th tree to open for a cultural victory and what will be the most useful at the immediate time. He already is deep in the game for Liberty. Thats what I am trying to say

 

[The Pilgrim]

There is nothing rational about Rationalism in culture games. As well as in preferring Honor/Commerce over Liberty. That just makes no sense for the reasons listed above. But I'm sure OP made his choice by now, so I'm not going to argue any further.

 

[Polisurgist]

See below.

 

[T-hawk]

I've spent quite a bit of time experimenting with this, and pretty well settled on this plan for the fastest possible culture. I got a culture win down to 221 turns (1555 AD) on Emperor with this approach: http://dos486.com/civ4/civ5gkculture/

Tradition all the way
Liberty to Representation
Piety to Religious Tolerance
Freedom all the way (Constitution before the specialist enhancers)
Patronage to Educated Elite
Finish Liberty (use Great Engineer for Sydney Opera House)
Finish Patronage
Finish Piety (Theocracy can wait until last, it's very weak. And you don't need the finisher, you shouldn't build any Holy Sites, save faith for Great Artist buying instead of surplus prophets.)

Representation is better than Religious Tolerance if you expand to at least five cities: reducing policy costs from 160% of base to 140% is a 12.5% savings, actually more than RT's 10%. And I'm also sure that at least five cities is correct: make sure they will all produce a Great Artist and they will all speed the culture win, and also you need that many for the research to reach Sydney Opera House.

 

[pilot00]

There is nothing rational about Rationalism in culture games. As well as in preferring Honor/Commerce over Liberty. That just makes no sense for the reasons listed above. But I'm sure OP made his choice by now, so I'm not going to argue any further.

Yes it seems we better not continue this any further since we dont seem to be able to get our points across in a correct manner as to make it understandable to one another it seems.

 

[Justice1337]

Yeah, I think I just criminally underestimated Liberty when I opened the thread. I don't think I want to finish it before Tradition, Piety, or Freedom, but definitely before Patronage. I do want it early for Representation, and the opener is not bad. Definitely better than Commerce or Honor.

So I am now writing down Tradition, Liberty, Piety, Patronage and Freedom as the 5 trees to complete in my cultural playbook. I completed the game I was on at the time of the OP, but I will probably do a new cultural game as Korea in the near future.

 

[BAshley]

I've heard it said that rationalism is viable because it gets you to the cultural wonders quicker so you have a higher chance of getting them.

 

[anthropophage]

Piety can be opened earlier and delivers more culture than rationalism though. 33% extra culture in a city with a wonder is massive. Opening rationalism is trading faster research for faster policy accrual.

 

[Justice1337]

I've heard it said that rationalism is viable because it gets you to the cultural wonders quicker so you have a higher chance of getting them.

No, this is correct for Diety as far as I've seen. The mistake is with how each side is framing it. A lot of the time people fail to specify what difficulty they're on, and then onlookers think that what's being said goes for all difficulties. Lots of people also think that Immortal and Diety are basically the same, when Diety is actually a huge bump up, especially for Cultural.

Any Wonder at all is very hard to get on Diety w/o a GE. So the thing is that Reformation is the most important policy on Immortal and lower, while on Diety it basically only applies to as many cities as you've been able to generate Great Engineers for. Which is to say, not many.

Consequently, Museums and Radio Towers are very important on Diety, such that Rationalism is chosen in a lot of pre-T300 culture wins I've seen LP's of.

And as an aside, the absolute fastest Cultural game I've seen was with Korea taking Piety, which of course gets both Secularism with the UA and Reformation, the best of both worlds.

 

[tommynt]

No, this is correct for Diety as far as I've seen. The mistake is with how each side is framing it. A lot of the time people fail to specify what difficulty they're on, and then onlookers think that what's being said goes for all difficulties.

Actually its more like that some people think that the way they achieved a win is the optimal way.

Piety will just allways be better if u want play "optimal" ie win fast and easy.

And there is a single reason - after u hit indu age teching doesnt really matter anyway anymore - all the late game wonders are just not needed - u obviously will want got towers at some point but getting them 2-3 turns more early is in no way comparable to-10% policy costs. Also there wont be time to go deep into Rati as u want switchthe tree anyway in indu age ....

 

[The Pilgrim]

No, this is correct for Diety as far as I've seen. The mistake is with how each side is framing it. A lot of the time people fail to specify what difficulty they're on, and then onlookers think that what's being said goes for all difficulties. Lots of people also think that Immortal and Diety are basically the same, when Diety is actually a huge bump up, especially for Cultural.

The problem with deity is that not taking Rationalism is always suboptimal-ish. People even call CV a suboptimal VC for this reason. You might need it just to survive and stay on par tech-wise, but in terms of which tree will bring you to Utopia faster, noting in Rationalism can compete with Religion Tolerance and Reformation. With Rationalism it'll take longer and thus increase the chance someone launches. Deity is a mess in context of culture games. However, on immortal and below there is no dilemma.

 

[Resipsa]

Currently playing a OCC as Eqypt and frankly ill take the opener to commerce early to get the boost in income for the capital and then finish the game with the other policies so its basically Tradition, Piety, Commerce opener, Patronage (until freedom), patronage and finish with commerce. But for all other CVs I'd recommend liberty as opposed to commerce.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Currently playing a OCC as Eqypt and frankly ill take the opener to commerce early to get the boost in income for the capital and then finish the game with the other policies so its basically Tradition, Piety, Commerce opener, Patronage (until freedom), patronage and finish with commerce. But for all other CVs I'd recommend liberty as opposed to commerce.

I've never tried, but I think that even in OCC they are somewhat on par (and if that doesn't emphasize how imbalanced SP trees are, I don't know what does). Unless you have a coastal OCC and aim for SOH, which is only viable on lower difficulties.

 

[Resipsa]

I've never tried, but I think that even in OCC they are somewhat on par (and if that doesn't emphasize how imbalanced SP trees are, I don't know what does). Unless you have a coastal OCC and aim for SOH, which is only viable on lower difficulties.

Playing on Immortal for this one. I kind of got lucky with random civs in that they are all warmongers except for Austria and she's about dead basically everyone is at war and aren't killing me in tech. I actually took the commerce opener right after tradition and with my wonder spam plus religious bonuses I'm raking in gold. One problem I'm going to have to deal with is Russia. I'll upload a save later today. Don't criticize lack of Cathedrals (it wasnt available)

EDIT: Still haven't been home to upload a save but have been thinking all day that since I didn't get Cathedrals and took Divine Inspiration +2 per wonder and I got Chitzenitza should I buy a couple great merchants once I start my perpetual Golden Age? I'll probably build the Louve around T 200, (currently on T180) I'll settle both Great Artists at the point I'll have 5 GA and 5 GP settled at that point. I can then buy 3 GA and hopefully pop another within the 45 turns I'm in a Golden Age. I'll still have left over so I could pop a few GM to generate more money but would that affect my cost too much? I'll have to think about that

 

[Resipsa]

Here's the save

 

[Unresolved]

I wouldn't buy any GM unless there's absolutely nothing left to buy(ie: you have all policies and your GA will last through Utopia).

 

[Resipsa]

I'll be able to get to Utopia in a Golden Age starting perpetual Golden Ages just before the Louve and buy the 2 GM after I get my next 2 GA that will pop naturally over the next 45 turns. At 6-7 Turns per policy I will finish at 293 plus my time to build Utopia. The GMs really won't do anything but what else will I spend the faith on

 

[Unresolved]

I'd rather buy more GA's and just plant them. When I go for culture(which admittedly isn't often), I try to plant while maintaining my permanent golden age. That means I have to figure out how long I have until my next GA spawn and how many turns of a golden age I have left. Sometimes you have to look even further than that.

 

[Resipsa]

The incremental cost of a 4th GA purchased with is much greater than purchasing your first two GM purchases otherwise you'd be right