Food-hammer-commerce conversion

[2metraninja]

I am not much of a mathematician and I play the game more relying on my senses and few rules of thumb and lately I was trying to figure out for myself how the three components food-hammer-commerce convert. Is it better to work a grassland farm or it is better to work a plain hill mine, etc.

I know it depends much of the game period, the immediate need, the situation of the game, but I think it should be some noobish and simple formula like:

1f = 1.8 h = 2.5c

which I have found around after researching (on another forum - couldnt find nothing like this on CFC), which is close enough to about what I had in my mind, which is 1f=2h=>3c

Is there any general consensus about this conversion rates?

 

[Higher Game]

Of course not.

Excessive food can fuel research via GPs and bulbing. Or hammers, by whipping. Excessive hammers can build wealth, and windmills give food. Excessive commerce opens up better techs to eventually improve the other areas, at the expense of time.

Food is valued the most for its flexibility and growth potential, of course, but a deficit in any area should be addressed.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

which I have found around after researching (on another forum - couldnt find nothing like this on CFC), which is close enough to about what I had in my mind, which is 1f=2h=>3c

Actually over a year ago I started a thread based on the games rating of to to as 10 / 6 / 4 respectively. This is actually coded in the game for AI priority IIRC...too bad it doesn't use it. The conclusion is that it wasn't rigorous enough as a heuristic due to the variability of starts and the changing value of food at different city sizes + and caps.

In general, it's not a bad start for comparing relative values while growing early on though. Still, micro optimization can take you away from maxing outputs based on these ratings so it's not something you can rely upon, just a good metric to give someone a relative value picture in the general terms.

 

[vanatteveldt]

There is a board game called euphrates and tigris where you score points in four areas (religion, agriculture, commerce, population). Your final score is the lowest of all your scores, forcing you to balance.

Civ works a bit that way. You need a certain balance of things for any endeavour. Some strategies rely on monopolizing one resource (eg workshops everywhere and build research as needed, cottage everywhere and buy production as needed) but that tends to be viable only pretty late.

Conversions exist but never have very good rates, so it is best to have exactly what you need at all times. Since this is impossible, you need to get what you can and keep some flexibility.

Food is favoured highly because it converts well (slavery with low pop and granaries to make hammers; specialists to make commerce (directly and through bulbing). Moreover, none of the other resources convert to food or population, making food a necessity more than the other resources. However, except for food specials and late-game farms, food is pretty difficult to get, as a farm gives +1f while a mine gives +2h and a cottage easily gives +2c.

If you lack in any area, you can also try to leverage what you do have a lot of to get more of the thing you are lacking. Ie a hammer rich civ can go military to capture some nice floodplains, while a commerce rich civ will try to get a decisive military advantage to make their hammers count more.

 

[MarigoldRan]

I am not much of a mathematician and I play the game more relying on my senses and few rules of thumb and lately I was trying to figure out for myself how the three components food-hammer-commerce convert. Is it better to work a grassland farm or it is better to work a plain hill mine, etc.

I know it depends much of the game period, the immediate need, the situation of the game, but I think it should be some noobish and simple formula like:

1f = 1.8 h = 2.5c

which I have found around after researching (on another forum - couldnt find nothing like this on CFC), which is close enough to about what I had in my mind, which is 1f=2h=>3c

Is there any general consensus about this conversion rates?

With granaries, or without granaries? Also, the conversion is ignoring happy cap issues?

 

[2metraninja]

Very good observations, Higher Game and vanatteveldt - especially strikes me what I have never though about - that food can be converted to anything, while hammers and commerce cant be transformed in to food directly. Also I like the more general idea of converting things by hammers-rich civ to seek war to get food-rich lands, while the commece-rich nation to seek advantage trough better weapons.

With granaries, or without granaries? Also, the conversion is ignoring happy cap issues?

I am speaking in general, and as in general every city will have a granary, yes, with granary. Happy cap is also situational - sometimes you will have it and sometimes you wont.

Of course there cant be any rock-solid and all-cases-proof formula, I am asking for how you people decide for yourself - I already said my formula - 1f=2h=>3c. TMIT said his 10-6-4 formula. This guy from the poly has his "1f = 1.8 h = 2.5c" formula (the guy claims to be an AI code programmer for civ4 btw, which also explains why it is so close to TMIT's who says it is from the AI code).

And yours if you have one?

 

[vicawoo]

On an unimproved tile basis, hills and plains convert hammers and food one to one. Coastal tiles are 1 food 2 commerce, so 1 to 1 hammers to commerce with a plains forest.

On a basic improved tile basis, food+hammers+commerce = 4 (except for rivers).

When builders workers/settlers, food is one to one with hammers.

Alphabet makes hammers one to one with beakers. Currency is better than one to one. Scientists with libraries are 3.75 beakers for 4 hammers (plains mine). Building modifiers cost hammers for gold/beakers, which also devalues commerce in unmodified cities.

Whipping variably provides food at a better than one to one conversion for hammers. But whipping cannot create commerce.

Growing provides another tile over the cost of food. There's a formula for optimal farm vs (cottage) tile turns.

 

[2metraninja]

Growing provides another tile over the cost of food. There's a formula for optimal farm vs (cottage) tile turns.

Ah! Formula! This is what i like most! Can you cite it please?

 

[krikav]

Ah! Formula! This is what i like most! Can you cite it please?

I think he is thinking about the formulas stated in:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301724

excellent guide anyway, that cottages guide.

Made me re-gain much needed respect for a improvement that I largely ignored after a brief passion when I first started playing civ4.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

food to hammer numbers (using the whip, with or without granary, for 1 pop whip, 2 pop whip, and 3 pop whip)... PM me if u don't get the table.

food to commerce conversion is more complicated since it needs to include science one get from bulbing (together with regular beakers as vicawoo said), and thus depends hugely on gameplay ( other thing to consider: do you build cottages? do you farm then cottage your cities, or do you cottage right away? etc).

edit: I can't upload the table, give me some minutes

 

[Higher Game]

I've never understood farms then cottages, even as an expansive guy. It just seems like FAR too many worker turns used. I wonder how worker turns ---> food/commerce/hammers works out, also taking into account time value?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

It just seems like FAR too many worker turns used. I wonder how worker turns ---> food/commerce/hammers works out, also taking into account time value?

Indeed, and you note I didn't advise it . Maybe it can be done late game on special conditions (large map, financial, democracy, Kremlin for added incensitive etc).
I was merely trying to illustrate the fact that this ratio is nearly impossible to get right

Most of the time though, the logical transition is farms into mills/workshops.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I know it depends much of the game period, the immediate need, the situation of the game, but I think it should be some noobish and simple formula like:

1f = 1.8 h = 2.5c

which I have found around after researching (on another forum - couldnt find nothing like this on CFC), which is close enough to about what I had in my mind, which is 1f=2h=>3c

There are various comparisons you can make between tiles to get a feel for what evaluation you are using at any given time.

Grassland mine (1F/3P) or Riverside Plains mine (4P/1C) ? I usually prefer the green mine, which suggests that 1F > 1P + 1C.

On the other hand, I'll normally work a gold mine (3P/7C) over a riverside farm (3F/1C), which implies that 1P + 2C > 1F.

I'm working grassland mines (1F/3P) instead of grassland riverside farms (3F+1C); so 3P > 2F + 1C. So 1P must be more than 2/3 F?

If you agree with those plays in the abstract, then you must be using a valuation along the lines of 10 / 7.5 / 2 as your baseline.


Of course, the point of city specialization is to turn a lot of this math on its head anyway. And once you get away from the good tiles, what you really care about is the marginal utility of the choices. Messy messy messy.

My feeling is that in practice, this goes out the window - you've either got a production center, in which case you are trying to max hammers, and any harvested commerce is chaff; or you have a economic center, in which case you're trying to produce just enough hammers, and we trade the surplus hammers for more economy without too much regard for idealized conversion rates.