found a religion in a holy city

[guven]

this is the first time I've seen it. I've found a religion on (Hiawatha's) holy city after puppeting it. I was expecting my religion to clear other religion but it didnt. the city (onondaga) has become a holy city for 2 religions (like the real life jerusalem). As hiawatha's religion had more followers, I couldnt purchase a missionary and had to wait until a new prophet was born. fortunately, the prophet was of my religion, otherwise I would have turned the game off.

just FYI.

 

[ArguCa]

Lol that's really interesting and never heard such a thing before.

 

[guven]

here's a capture

 

[Heretiv]

Well that's odd.. I wonder do both religions exert the same pressure?
Does Grand Temple double the pressure of both too?

 

[Browd]

As you have seen, Great Prophets (even GPs used to found a religion) do not eliminate other religions' holy city character -- only Inquisitors can do that.

Spread your religion to another city, buy an Inquisitor in that city, and send it back to zap Onondaga. That should eliminate the Protestant holy city character.

 

[Krajzen]

Wow this is amazing

I have never seen such thing o_o

 

[Heretiv]

No, I dont think so, from what I have seen even if you use an inquisitor on a holy city the religion will come back slowly

 

[Browd]

The religion may reassert itself based on pressure from other Protestant cities, or missionary spam from other Iroquois cities, or the Iroquois spawning more Great Prophets to re-spread their religion, but once you zap it with an Inquisitor, Onondaga's special Holy City character will be gone (i.e., even if the Iroquois retake Onondaga, it will never be a Holy City again).

 

[guven]

Spread your religion to another city, buy an Inquisitor in that city, and send it back to zap Onandaga. That should eliminate the Protestant holy city character.

that's the weird part. since this is the first time I have found the religion, there's no other city with catholic religion. so I cannot buy an inquisitor nor a missionary. I had to wait until a new prophet is born. as I've mentioned, newborn prophet was a catholic boy luckily.

 

[beetle]

Wow, I never have had the opportunity to try this, and it would not have occurred to me anyway. Thanks for sharing!

Normally a city can only get advantages from one religion, and capturing a holy city does not get you the founder benefits (sadly). Is there any benefit to the city being the founding city for two religions? Aside from the placement for religious pressure being really good, I can’t think of anything. Would there be something beyond that?

I had to wait until a new prophet is born. as I've mentioned, newborn prophet was a catholic boy luckily.

Not luck, game mechanics. Your prophets will always be of your founded religion, even when purchased in a city of a different religion (which I learned the hard way). As I recall, the option to purchase a prophet is not available if you have not founded a religion. I am curious as to what happens if you get a great prophet from a wonder or UA when founding is no longer possible, but that is almost as rare as what you have done.

Were you still puppeting Onondaga when the prophet appeared? (I think you could have been.) If so, are you still puppeting Onondaga now? (No particularly good reason not to, I don’t think.)

 

[Browd]

I assumed that his GP spawned in his capital and then he sent it to Onondaga to found his religion there -- perhaps thinking that founding there would kill Protestantism.

@guven, is that what happened?

 

[beetle]

I assumed that his GP spawned in his capital and then he sent it to Onondaga to found his religion there -- perhaps thinking that founding there would kill Protestantism.

Yes, that was my understanding.

When guven wrote, “I had to wait until a new prophet is born”, I think he was referring to his second GP.

 

[beetle]

like the real life jerusalem

Jerusalem is holy to three religions, which I figured had to be impossible in-game. Lo-and-behold, elsewhere Browd points out a thread where the AI founded their religion in a conquered holy city!

A Holy City for 2 religions

I am now guessing that this AI behavior is not actually that unusual, but being able to witness it sure is!

 

[guven]

I am curious as to what happens if you get a great prophet from a wonder or UA when founding is no longer possible, but that is almost as rare as what you have done.

this has happened to me before. sadly, if you get a GP after all religions are found (I got that GP from hagia sopia) he will be a useless prophet.

onondaga was already my puppet and I have destroyed the Iroquois completely before my first GP was born. I was thinking that I would not be able to come up with a prophet but some ancient ruins gave 60 faith and my prophet was born. So I send my prophet to onandaga to replace the religion there (actually to see what might happen). there I had a dual religion holy city. then with the second prophet I've enhanced my religion, maybe at that point I should have spread the religion instead of enhancing. anyway with the 3rd prophet I've spread catholicism and then the protestanism was gone for good.

 

[subtledoctor]

I did this once on purpose. Spawned near Harun al-Rashid, and was on my way to taking his capital, which became my 4th city (but 2nd-most-important). Caesar was attacking him from the other side, so I marched 3 comp bows and a spearman down and took it easily. I had my first Great Prophet a few tiles behind them, for to found my religion there and more easily spread it outward. (Back-filling to my own cities would be easy.)

Unfortunately, Harun founded Islam there one turn (!) before I took the city. I immediately founded Catholicism there 2 turns later, but the city was still majority Islam. I had to burn my next Prophet to covert it, and it wasn't a problem after that. The 'internal pressure' from my religion being the majority was enough to prevent Islam from ever manifesting again - I never had to take any more direct action. It was worth it, in the end.

No, I dont think so, from what I have seen even if you use an inquisitor on a holy city the religion will come back slowly

Yes, UNLESS you found another religion there and make yours the dominant one (which takes two Prophets to do). Then the internal pressure of the dominant religion will naturally suppress the other one. If you found your religion somewhere else, the original religion of their holy city will always creep back, no matter how many inquisitors you throw at it. (The only way to suppress it then is to get Religious Texts and surround the city with 5+ of your own, plus maybe the Grand Temple and a trade route, so that the external pressure overcomes the holy city's internal pressure.

[edit] Hmm, Browd says otherwise, and he's much more experienced than me with this stuff. So maybe an inquisitor would in fact work.

 

[myclan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can only get a Great Phophet of your religion, it is player related.

 

[beetle]

I did this once on purpose.

Okay, so maybe this strategy is not as rare as I thought!

Browd says otherwise, and he's much more experienced than me with this stuff. So maybe an inquisitor would in fact work.

A single inquisitor is enough to remove the “holy city” characteristic. When used for that, does it also remove all religious followers from that city (like it would if used on one of your founded cities)? Either way, if you don’t convert nearby cities quickly, it is quite easy for the foreign religion to re-asserted itself, especially if that religion has intenerate preacher or religious texts.

Since Great Prophets are so much better at spreading your religion than inquisitors, it does seem to me that in actual practice using a GP on a (former) holy city should work quite well. That said, I follow Browd’s guide and always start with the inquisitor, following up with a GP as soon as I can. If you prophet bomb the (former) holy city — and the original religion is not present in nearby cities — can the original religion really reassert itself? I would think it would be exactly like having one city (but only one) with competing religion nearby.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can only get a Great Phophet of your religion, it is player related.

Yes, your religion, or (per guven) no religion at all!

 

[Browd]

To respond to beetle's earlier question

I am curious as to what happens if you get a great prophet from a wonder or UA when founding is no longer possible

your only meaningful option at that point is to plant the GP to form a Holy Site. You can use the GP as a mediocre scout, but that is usually a poor choice (they can go anywhere without open borders or attrition, but only have sight on adjacent tiles, suffer full terrain movement penalties, cannot pass through other units, and you are paying maintenance on the GP).