France vs. Brazil

[meowschwitz]

Now that everybody's had some time to devote themselves to going for the new culture victory, I'd like to see how people look at these two civs as their design is now very similar.

UA: Brazil and France both get bonuses that can escalate their tourism to extremely high levels. Brazil needs golden ages but also gets increased gwam production. France's bonus doesn't rely on getting golden ages or military victories, just great works and archaeology; so they may be a little more reliable. However, on higher difficulties or with more players, getting some of those big themed wonders could get a little difficult. I personally lean towards Brazil here but it's basically equal in terms of total tourism throughout the course of the game in my opinion.

UI: Brazilwood Camp vs. Chateaux. Both are extremely good for boosting both gold and tourism on a tile. That helps them support the building maintenance of so many culture buildings and allows for that culture to be converted into tourism later in the game. Both even add to your defense in different ways as the Chateaux give defensive bonuses and the jungles under the camp slow down invasion forces. However I think the Camp comes out on top because it also gets all the potential boosts that trading posts get from social policies and those tiles just end up being a little more impressive.

UU: Musketeer vs. Pracinha. The Musketeer is still the strongest musketman out there and really can help conquer because of that. That can really make france good at stealing great works. On the other hand the Pracinha isn't any better than the base infantry which means it's not actually any easier to wage war with them. I don't know how big the golden age boost is but I think I'd prefer The Musketeer. One cool thing I did see with the Pracinhas i did see was that you could take the volunteer army tenet in Freedom and then upgrade them into awesome Pracinhas.

In the hands of the AI: I find France usually does better because it doesn't have to deal with the early lack of production from the Jungle start bias and can therefore use it's Musketeers in larger numbers. Also it seems to play a little better in the culture game now that AI happiness has been reduced. I probably don't have a large enough sample size though.

What civ do you guys think is better. Are these civs too similar? What are some good strategies for either?

 

[God of Kings]

It would be great to add a poll. Please report your own post to request the mods to add a poll for you.

 

[meowschwitz]

It would be great to add a poll. Please report your own post to request the mods to add a poll for you.

Thanks that's a really good idea!

 

[Petiscator]

Wait, where did you see that the Brazilwood Camps get bonuses from the Trading Posts social policies? I don't think this is true. Did you see it in-game? Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Jewman]

I also don't think the trading post thing is true either. Brazil is awesome... their number one drawback (and I find it incredibly obnoxious) is their low production start. If you survive a painstakingly slow start with hopefully a GL or Stonehenge and at least one city (AI now has this wonderful habit of building their second city right next to my capital no matter how far away they are) and a whole bunch of brazilwood camps then you're good. Otherwise it's just frustrating.

 

[Kizo]

France vs Brazil? 3-0. Zidane twice, Petit at the end.

Seriously though, it's France, for being more reliable. Brazil has a higher ceiling but a much lower floor. It doesn't matter how good Brazilwood camps are if you don't start with enough jungle. On the other hand, too much jungle makes the early game brutal. If the stars align and Brazil gets lots of jungle (but not too much), great city locations (with production to support the jungle), relative seclusion (or at least no aggressive neighbors), AND important wonders (Chichen Itza being at the top of the list), then Brazil will crush France and anyone else. The problem is, that's unrealistic. France can do just as well with much less risk.

Of course, that's only comparing the two at the culture game. Brazil is very well suited for diplomatic victory as well, whereas France doesn't have much to fall back on after culture.

 

[Crafty Bison]

France vs Brazil? 3-0. Zidane twice, Petit at the end.

! In what world do France beat Brazil at (association) football? Probably the one that missed Brazil smashing Spain at the confeds, or, if going historically, the one that forgot about Pele, Garrincha, Zico, Romario, Ronaldo, Kaka and Roberto Carlos to name a few.

 

[Kizo]

! In what world do France beat Brazil at (association) football?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_FIFA_World_Cup_Final

Probably the one that missed Brazil smashing Spain at the confeds

Spelling bees and Scrabble tournaments are more legitimate sport than the Confederations Cup.

 

[Yzman]

France vs Brazil? 3-0. Zidane twice, Petit at the end.

Seriously though, it's France, for being more reliable. Brazil has a higher ceiling but a much lower floor. It doesn't matter how good Brazilwood camps are if you don't start with enough jungle. On the other hand, too much jungle makes the early game brutal. If the stars align and Brazil gets lots of jungle (but not too much), great city locations (with production to support the jungle), relative seclusion (or at least no aggressive neighbors), AND important wonders (Chichen Itza being at the top of the list), then Brazil will crush France and anyone else. The problem is, that's unrealistic. France can do just as well with much less risk.

Of course, that's only comparing the two at the culture game. Brazil is very well suited for diplomatic victory as well, whereas France doesn't have much to fall back on after culture.

How is Brazil more suited for diplo than any other civ? They don't get any bonuses to it that I am aware of.

 

[Kizo]

How is Brazil more suited for diplo than any other civ? They don't get any bonuses to it that I am aware of.

None explicitly, no, but it's a byproduct of their play style. 150+ turns of Carnival will make you filthy rich, particularly thanks to Brazilwood camps, which you're building anyway if you're going for a culture game. That was ultimately my point, that Brazil is flexible in being able to play a simultaneous culture/diplomacy game and favor whichever is going better as the game unfolds. On the other hand, France only has culture, and would find it difficult to transition into another victory condition.

 

[Viregel]

If Brazil's clever about it, it can use those Great Artists to have an almost infinite Golden Age. I don't really like France because if the capital can't get those essential wonders, they loose their UA. Also, Brazil can pick up a ton of Golden ages in the late game, which I presume gives them that double theming boost anyway, and in all cities. You're not going to need that from the start of the game, but the Great People are always useful. That's why I lean towards Brazil.