From Civ 4 to Civ 5: questions

[InFlux5]

So I held out on making the move to Civ 5 for quite a while, but I just recently bought BNW and decided to dive in. After some trials and testing - no wins yet - I feel that 5 may be the superior game. But I have so many questions that aren't answered by in-game information. Here are just a few:

1. Do I have no control over natural border expansion? It seems not, and that the purple tile in the city view tells me where the next expansion will be. Except I've had the border expand to a different tile on numerous occasions. So it seems like a crap shoot where my borders expand, and the purple highlighted tile is meaningless. Am I wrong?

2. What's the combat strength of an embarked unit? Overall I love the embarkation system, but in-game it just says something like "they'll have weak defense". Anyone know how it actually works? Is it based on their melee combat strength at all?

3. I can't get a handle on how many cities I should have. I keep reading in threads that most people stop at 4, maybe 5. But this seems like so few on a Standard map. Why is 4 cities a sweet spot?

4. When do you usually found your 2nd city?

5. In Civ 4 it seemed much easier to get a build out quickly when needed. Between whipping and chopping I could get a Settler up and have my 2nd city very early if I wanted. In Civ 5 this seems impossible. There is no Slavery, and the 20 production from a chop shaves 1, maybe 2 turns off the Settler build. I don't see any way to beat the computer to choice territory right now, and this is at King or below. Am I missing some tricks to quick expansion? Or do you just resign yourself to expanding slower than the AI then dealing with it later?

6. Speaking of chopping, do forests ever grow like in Civ 4? I don't think I've ever seen it. Are most forests better saved for lumber mills?

7. For a Conquest Victory, do I need to keep all the capitals, or can I raze them? I now know you can't raze capitals.

8. I get the idea that a focus on food and growth is basically always preferable to a production focus. But is this true even for builds that will themselves contribute to growth, such as a Worker or Granary? Can it make sense to turn on production focus for stuff like this? (Yes I am still using the governor at this point. It at least seems better than in previous versions.)

9. I hear a lot of talk of "tall vs wide". I have always loved the idea of small empires having a chance to win, so the notion of tall intrigues me. And it must be viable given that Venice is a civ. But it still seems like land is power in most cases. Could anyone give me a quick rundown of how tall and wide differ in their approach to winning, and particularly how a tall empire should play? I think there are enough threads on this for me to get an idea with a little more research.

Phew. So I'm sure I have more but these are the main ones right now. My mind is just so steeped in Civ 4 that I'm having a hard time making the transition and I want to get better faster.

Thank you in advance for any info!

P.S. If I can squeeze one more in: what are the benefits of religion? There's the founder/follower bonuses, and I think a diplomatic boost from sharing it. But what else? Focusing on it seems like a significant investment. Is there any good reason to?

 

[otaman1]

So I held out on making the move to Civ 5 for quite a while, but I just recently bought BNW and decided to dive in. After some trials and testing - no wins yet - I feel that 5 may be the superior game. But I have so many questions that aren't answered by in-game information. Here are just a few:

1. Do I have no control over natural border expansion? It seems not, and that the purple tile in the city view tells me where the next expansion will be. Except I've had the border expand to a different tile on numerous occasions. So it seems like a crap shoot where my borders expand, and the purple highlighted tile is meaningless. Am I wrong?

The city will choose the next best tile. It will eventually highlight 2 or more borders and pick one randomly. You can also buy a tile for X gold. The cost depends on the terrain.

2. What's the combat strength of an embarked unit? Overall I love the embarkation system, but in-game it just says something like "they'll have weak defense". Anyone know how it actually works? Is it based on their melee combat strength at all?

When units are embarked, they are weak and vulnerable to ships and ranged units and cities. They are also weak and they launch an amphibious attack unless they have the amphibious promotion. The Marines have the amphibious promotion so if you want to launch an amphibious invasion, use the Marines.

3. I can't get a handle on how many cities I should have. I keep reading in threads that most people stop at 4, maybe 5. But this seems like so few on a Standard map. Why is 4 cities a sweet spot?

More cities = more unhappiness. But it's your decision. People pick what's right for them.

4. When do you usually found your 2nd city?

Whenever I find a nice spot to settle. Usually around turn 50-150.

5. In Civ 4 it seemed much easier to get a build out quickly when needed. Between whipping and chopping I could get a Settler up and have my 2nd city very early if I wanted. In Civ 5 this seems impossible. There is no Slavery, and the 20 production from a chop shaves 1, maybe 2 turns off the Settler build. I don't see any way to beat the computer to choice territory right now, and this is at King or below. Am I missing some tricks to quick expansion? Or do you just resign yourself to expanding slower than the AI then dealing with it later?

Build mines, lumber mills, and production buildings. Choose production policies.

6. Speaking of chopping, do forests ever grow like in Civ 4? I don't think I've ever seen it. Are most forests better saved for lumber mills?

Nope. Once it's gone, it's gone.

7. For a Conquest Victory, do I need to keep all the capitals, or can I raze them?

You can't raze capitals (unless you're playing with one-city challenge). You must however capture all the civilization's capital to win.

8. I get the idea that a focus on food and growth is basically always preferable to a production focus. But is this true even for builds that will themselves contribute to growth, such as a Worker or Granary? Can it make sense to turn on production focus for stuff like this? (Yes I am still using the governor at this point. It at least seems better than in previous versions.)

Early games, you need food. As you get more farms and mines, you can focus back on food.

 

[Santa Maria]

I dunno the answers but I'll try:

1. No you never have control over natural border expansion - which is a shame I think. The expansion prioritizes resources, luxuries and the pink shows for which tiles it will go next it can be more than one, but sometimes it goes for other tile - not sure about this.

2. dunno - am also interested in how it works

3. You have to find the balance, cause the more cities you have -> the more unhappiness -> the less and slower you can grow (if at all) -> so you end up with 20 two pop cities, high unhappiness and no production,... You try to grow your first cities to make em productive and competitive. Dunno somebody should explain it better. But I think the balance is at 4-5 to be the best?

4. Usually its better to grow your capital to at least 4 pop and then make a settler. If you find 2 culture ruins, you can have a settler before turn 30 with Liberty policies. Otherwise turn 40? I really dunno.

5. On deity the AI actually starts with 2 settlers and with their bonuses you cant compete in expansion. But with clever settling you can block em off and still get a number of cities out, but again sometimes it's better to stay at 4 cities. Yeah but generally the AI will expand fast so you so or so can get only about 3-6 good spots.

6. Yeah forests never grow, are good for chopping to boost a wonder or something, yeah you need to look at how much production your city has, if no hills just flat land it's better to have a lumber mill otherwise with hills, better chop.

7. capitals can never be razed, by domination wins the player who controls all of the capitals.

8. Short video to explain why you should go production focus and manage your citizens by yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guMIOmpNRP8&list=PLO2TQ35QuC4E4AWKuoI8LKtMJOWLUfF3H&index=2
How food contributes to settler prod: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5vSKAahXT4&list=PLO2TQ35QuC4E4AWKuoI8LKtMJOWLUfF3H&index=1
And a 2hour video on this topic if you have the time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REbq7K7UQA4&list=SP7EE134995D4190C4&index=29

I think it's well explained there - what should you do.

9. tall vs wide, someone else should tell I dunno

 

[InFlux5]

Thanks for the replies.

Domination seems incredibly hard.... If people are frequently staying at 4 cities, how do you manage such a large number of them spread around the globe?

 

[Louis XXIV]

My general view is that a four city core is extremely helpful early on. In order to build national wonders, you need the specific buildings in every city. The cost of the wonder also goes up with more cities. The National College is very important (and probably should be built when you only have one or two cities). But the Circus Maximus and even the Heroic Epic are nice to build early. You also get social policies faster with a small territory, so it would be nice to complete a branch or at least get the important ones before you expand. Unfortunately, Tradition is much better than Liberty these days, which encourages a smaller empire.

However, once I get a good "core" of my civilization, I will start to expand as long as my happiness supports it. More territory is good for more resources, more faith, you might be able to better position a caravan, and it often more science (provided you aren't slowing growth). Just keep in mind that happiness buildings don't affect happiness for number of cities. For that, you need social policies, wonders, religious beliefs, and luxuries.

 

[Teproc]

Thanks for the replies.

Domination seems incredibly hard.... If people are frequently staying at 4 cities, how do you manage such a large number of them spread around the globe?

You only need to take capitals, and you can puppet them at first. Also, the AI is incapable to fight correctly with one unit per tile, so the empire managmen part of domination is harder, but the actual fighting is easier I think.

 

[Aristos]

1. No you never have control over natural border expansion - which is a shame I think. The expansion prioritizes resources, luxuries and the pink shows for which tiles it will go next it can be more than one, but sometimes it goes for other tile - not sure about this.

Yes you do. You can purchase tiles a piacere as long as your economy supports it. If you want to micromanage, you can even control, to some extent, the next cultural border expansion by purchasing the right tile just before the next jump...

 

[Scarpa]

I'll add a few points that haven't been mentioned yet.

1. Do I have no control over natural border expansion? It seems not, and that the purple tile in the city view tells me where the next expansion will be. Except I've had the border expand to a different tile on numerous occasions. So it seems like a crap shoot where my borders expand, and the purple highlighted tile is meaningless. Am I wrong?

The purple tile can change depending on if you buy tiles or if something else changes (ie you chopped a forest). It is possible to influence your natural growth by buying tiles to change the natural priority, but I don't know the exact rules on it and never do it 'on purpose'.

2. What's the combat strength of an embarked unit? Overall I love the embarkation system, but in-game it just says something like "they'll have weak defense". Anyone know how it actually works? Is it based on their melee combat strength at all?

I'm not sure but you can find out next time you attack an embarked unit by hovering over it and seeing the combat calculation. It's better than it used to be at least, embarked units were instantly killed when an enemy ship moved over it in the base game.

3. I can't get a handle on how many cities I should have. I keep reading in threads that most people stop at 4, maybe 5. But this seems like so few on a Standard map. Why is 4 cities a sweet spot?

You always hear 4 cities because that's how many cities get buffed by tradition policies (free monuments and aqueducts). It also is around the point where you start running out of unique luxury resources to manage happiness. Also with 4 cities you can pretty much let them all grow and build any infrastructure you want in all cities all game long. Once you get more cities you start having to make harder choices about when to limit growth and what infrastructure to skip.

4. When do you usually found your 2nd city?

5. In Civ 4 it seemed much easier to get a build out quickly when needed. Between whipping and chopping I could get a Settler up and have my 2nd city very early if I wanted. In Civ 5 this seems impossible. There is no Slavery, and the 20 production from a chop shaves 1, maybe 2 turns off the Settler build. I don't see any way to beat the computer to choice territory right now, and this is at King or below. Am I missing some tricks to quick expansion? Or do you just resign yourself to expanding slower than the AI then dealing with it later?

I usually build my second and third cities at the same time, as soon as I can afford it which is around 5 citizens in the Capital. It depends on the terrain and overall situation of course. Don't forget you can rush buy things with cash. I tend to build and then buy a settler once the built one is done to get those two early cities up around the same time. To get early money sell ALL your luxuries and/or horses, scout aggressively to try to get the 30 gold on first CS meeting and work to clear barb camps. I say sell ALL luxuries because in the initial 30 turns or so you probably have excess happiness and need the GPT from an AI deal more.

8. I get the idea that a focus on food and growth is basically always preferable to a production focus. But is this true even for builds that will themselves contribute to growth, such as a Worker or Granary? Can it make sense to turn on production focus for stuff like this? (Yes I am still using the governor at this point. It at least seems better than in previous versions.)

This is a tricky one, but these days I lean towards growth always. The thing to understand is if you only have say, 5 citizens and will grow in 5 turns on default focus, it doesn't make sense to take one citizen and put them on a hill to shave 3 turns off a 10 turn build time. You'll get the 6th citizen halfway through and then in the original 10 turns you have what you wanted to build AND a citizen instead of what you wanted an no extra citizen in 7 or 8 turns.

P.S. If I can squeeze one more in: what are the benefits of religion? There's the founder/follower bonuses, and I think a diplomatic boost from sharing it. But what else? Focusing on it seems like a significant investment. Is there any good reason to?

I think of religion as filling in the gaps. You always are going to want faith, even if you don't get a religion you can spend it later on buildings from your acquired religion (if any) and great people once you hit industrial. If you manage a pantheon or religion it's a great way to boost the areas of your empire that are lacking.

 

[Louis XXIV]

They also provide nice perks. Some strategies can be built entirely around them. Playing as the Byzantines and getting Cathedrals, Mosques, Pagodas, and the Sacred Sites Reformation belief (substitute Monasteries for any of the three buildings if you have wine and/or incense) is a very strong strategy for cultural victory if you can get faith quick enough. Likewise, getting The Glory of God when you play as Sweden (maybe throw in Papal Primacy and Religious Unity) is a great way to win diplomatic victory.

Sometimes, investment is easier than others. If you have a lot of desert, Desert Folklore will give you a ton of faith to work with for other things. Other Pantheons will boost you even if you forget about religion from then on (Goddess of the Sea is one. I think Sun God is strong as well, but I haven't played with it much). For awhile, I used Faith Healers as a crutch on higher difficulties because it made defense against stronger armies ridiculously easy. Pick it with Ethiopia and no one can hurt you

 

[beetle]

If people are frequently staying at 4 cities, how do you manage such a large number of them spread around the globe?

That’s four cities that you settle. Except for certain civs, they should all be within 10 tiles of each other. The puppet mechanic is new from IV to V and is what you should use until the automated governor starts building a Stock Exchange or Research Lab.

One thing that is quite different in its implementation is the National Wonder mechanic. I am addicted to them (not that you should emulate my bad play and habits) and building them pretty late into the game, since the last one becomes available with Police Stations in all your non-puppet cities. I overlooked that for my first several games. One more reason to go tall rather than wide.

What are the benefits of religion? There's the founder/follower bonuses, and I think a diplomatic boost from sharing it. But what else? Focusing on it seems like a significant investment. Is there any good reason to?

When I started, V religion really felt like corporations from IV. It adds an interesting layer to game play. I tend to turtle, so I really appreciated the option additional units to move around the world. See Browd’s excellent Religion: How Does the Religion System Work?

You also asked about border expansion. This was advertised as being so different from previous civs, but it does not feel that way to me. It just starts off slower and is more incremental. I very much miss city flipping from IV, as the ai loves to settle right on top of you! This crowding was the one thing that was annoying me the most, but, happily, changing the minimum distance between cities from 3 to 4 is possible (and really increased my enjoyment of games).