From demigod to klutz

[walletta]

If you get rails built, IIRC you should get +1 commerce in every railed tile. Depending on how closely-spaced your cities are, even a minimal network which only connects your cities may then (with your Libs+Unis) be enough to get you 50% more beakers per turn, which would then drop RepParts research-time to 6-7T. Entirely railing your core should get you comfortably to 4T-research (even for AtomTheory, if you don't take it with ToE) -- and if not, then railing your fully irrigated farm-zone(s) will also increase those towns' food-harvest by 2-3FPT, allowing you to run at least 1 more Geek (i.e. +3BPT) per farm.

So what are you waiting for? Go and get that Coal! Joanie doesn't deserve to keep it!

Ha ha! The generals are presently falling out among themselves about whether it should be Carthage after all. I have no negative front with Carthage whereas France can come at me from multiple directions and having no rail network means I have to set aside resources for defence. No coal really stinks!

 

[Lanzelot]

If you get rails built, IIRC you should get +1 commerce in every railed tile.

As mentioned by Atishay a few posts up, a rail gives +1 shield, if the tile has a mine, and +1 food, if the tile has an irrigation. That's all. (And already quite powerful, if I may say so. Extra commerce on top of that would be a game-breaker...)

 

[tjs282]

As mentioned by Atishay a few posts up, a rail gives +1 shield, if the tile has a mine, and +1 food, if the tile has an irrigation. That's all. (And already quite powerful, if I may say so. Extra commerce on top of that would be a game-breaker...)

Really? I knew about the shield and food, and roads give +1 CPT, so I thought rails did too (admittedly I'm usually more interested in rails for the shields and the fast movement). Oh well...

So does that mean that the best (only?) way to improve BPT with rails would to use extra FPT to add to your population, and then hire Geeks (in farms) or Cops (in semi-core cities)?

 

[Lanzelot]

I am way off this 4-turn tech pace thing in the IA. How the heck are you doing that? I have libraries and universities in all my major cities and scientists working wherever there is food to spare.

It's a standard map this time, isn't it? Then 4-turn research should be possible on Demigod by the end of the middle ages. (As before, I have not enough experience on the large/huge maps to say whether it should be possible there, too. Could be it takes a bit longer there?!)
Can't say what is going "wrong" in your case without looking at the save, but most probably too slow expansion?! Are you already at 65% land? (If there is no coal in your borders by the time you discover Steam, then probably not... )

Research games on higher levels are among the most difficult, I would say: there are too many competing interests to pursue at the same time: first the dash to universities, then the dash to 65% landmass without being able to divert resources into Chivalry and Military Tradition (so the land-grab has to be done mainly with horsemen, later you can use Knights, after the AI discovered Chivalry for you), and then the dash to Cope & Newton, while all the time keeping a well-timed GA in mind...
That's quite something. Don't expect to get it right on the first try.

 

[Lanzelot]

So does that mean that the best (only?) way to improve BPT with rails would to use extra FPT to add to your population, and then hire Geeks (in farms) or Cops (in semi-core cities)?

In the core, rails do not directly increase your bpt. (Perhaps only indirectly by allowing you to build more units to capture more land for science farms.) In terms of research, rails are important mainly in the science farms, to a) allow those towns to grow faster and then b) feed more geeks from the same number of tiles.

 

[walletta]

It's a standard map this time, isn't it? Then 4-turn research should be possible on Demigod by the end of the middle ages. (As before, I have not enough experience on the large/huge maps to say whether it should be possible there, too. Could be it takes a bit longer there?!)
Can't say what is going "wrong" in your case without looking at the save, but most probably too slow expansion?! Are you already at 65% land? (If there is no coal in your borders by the time you discover Steam, then probably not... )

Research games on higher levels are among the most difficult, I would say: there are too many competing interests to pursue at the same time: first the dash to universities, then the dash to 65% landmass without being able to divert resources into Chivalry and Military Tradition (so the land-grab has to be done mainly with horsemen, later you can use Knights, after the AI discovered Chivalry for you), and then the dash to Cope & Newton, while all the time keeping a well-timed GA in mind...
That's quite something. Don't expect to get it right on the first try.

Ah, well I'm playing on a larger-than-normal map, so 12 civs in all (two of which have bitten the dust). Maybe that explains why it's slower. I have a decent slab of turf (not quite 65% though …) more than my fair share in fact, having dispossessed Byzantium of most of hers.

Now I see the problem with Smith's thing (what is the proper name?) and why one of the science GW's would have been better. That's for the next game. In this one, if I can get coal reasonably soon then things will be shaping up well.

My capital is not in a great spot. After reloading for a good start, I settled on a river with one luxury adjoining the city square. But almost all the terrain is either plain grass or that other one that isn't desert and only yields 2-1-3 tops (before rail). No mountains or hills to really get the shields rolling out.

I gotta say, though - the mounted warrior is an awesome replacement for the javelin thrower. Until further notice, therefore, I am to be considered a native (north) American hoping to establish my civilisation next to the Byzantines or perhaps the English, both of which are a pushover early doors.

 

[justanick]

I am way off this 4-turn tech pace thing in the IA. How the heck are you doing that? I have libraries and universities in all my major cities and scientists working wherever there is food to spare. I have just started researching replaceable parts and it's going to take me 9 turns or so. I have the tech lead and am the no. 1 nation in pop. GNP etc. (only temporarily as I have no coal and the neighbours are building railroads, not to mention hospitals - as I by-passed sanitation to get to scientific method first)

Well, having to take more than 4 turns per tech in the industrial age is not unusual at higher settings. At Sid that would be near unpossible unless you have hospitals and a huge empire and communism and a commercial Civ.

But as you are only playing Demigod you should have little problem to get more than 1000 beakers per turn with a mid sized empire of 40 Cities on a standard map. That would suffice for replaceable parts in 5 turns.

Hospitals are a must have for good research at higher settings. At Demigod that might still be excusable, but at Sid you should have the research costs for sanitation in fairly soon.

As communist you are able to lower corruption by all means available to zero or near zero, so your metropolises produce around 30 base commerce after corruption which is 60 beakers with universities and 75 with labs. So an empire of 60 fully developed metropolises should get you 3600 beakers per turn in the (late) IA and 4500 beakers per turn in the modern age.

At Demigod only replacable parts(140) cost 4800 beakers, synthetic fibers cost 9600 beakers and future techs(400) cost 13714 beakers. At Deity it is 5600 beakers, 11200 beakers and 16000 beakers. At Sid it is 8400 beakers, 16800 beakers and 24000 beakers. At Sid you may have to settle with 6 turns per tech, but below Sid 4 turns are rather possible while you have a sufficiently developed and sufficiently big empire with 100% on the research slider.

As before, I have not enough experience on the large/huge maps to say whether it should be possible there, too. Could be it takes a bit longer there?!

It might indeed take longer, but in the end is slightly easier to achieve. In essense map size does not matter. Only Sid or below Sid matters.

Now I see the problem with Smith's thing (what is the proper name?) and why one of the science GW's would have been better. That's for the next game. In this one, if I can get coal reasonably soon then things will be shaping up well.

At larger maps Adam Smiths trading company should be even more valuable.

 

[walletta]

Thank you, Justanick. I am beginning to realise just how subtle are the choices facing the aspiring player when entering the industrial age. The game is beautifully designed IMO. We had this a few posts back. Does one go for:

1 hospitals and a bigger pop
2 factories and thus more shields
3 scientific method and the prospect of two free techs
4 replaceable parts and the boost in unit value and worker efficiency, or
5 nationalism and the off-shoots therefrom (communism, espionage etc)

Obviously, you end up with all of them but the question is: in which order is it best to grab them? In this game I have chosen this sequence:

2, 3, 4 (with 5 acquired by trade and not sure what to do about sanitation yet - it all depends on the outcome of hostilities).

The IA definitely favours the last (at least in my current game) although it may well be the weakest.

 

[Theov]

Thank you, Justanick. I am beginning to realise just how subtle are the choices facing the aspiring player when entering the industrial age. The game is beautifully designed IMO. We had this a few posts back. Does one go for:

1 hospitals and a bigger pop
2 factories and thus more shields
3 scientific method and the prospect of two free techs
4 replaceable parts and the boost in unit value and worker efficiency, or
5 nationalism and the off-shoots therefrom (communism, espionage etc)

Obviously, you end up with all of them but the question is: in which order is it best to grab them? In this game I have chosen this sequence:

2, 3, 4 (with 5 acquired by trade and not sure what to do about sanitation yet - it all depends on the outcome of hostilities).

The IA definitely favours the last (at least in my current game) although it may well be the weakest.

Bigger population is only nice if you have tiles that are not worked by size12 cities.
If you placed your cities correctly, you won't have any tiles unworked in the IndAge so, hospitals are not a necessity.

 

[justanick]

Bigger population is only nice if you have tiles that are not worked by size12 cities.
If you placed your cities correctly, you won't have any tiles unworked in the IndAge so, hospitals are not a necessity.

In my opinion they are. Bigger cities instead of more cities means you have a lower corruption, a lower total initial investment into buildings and lower maintance costs. The later are adding up once the more expensive buildings of the industrial age and later are built. So if at a given land area you want to stay research competitive, than you need to disband approximatly 10 out of 30 cities at size 12 to have 20 cities of size 18 to 19 instead. Details can vary a lot. Also most people seem to prefer ending their game prior to the modern age and thus dismiss the advantages of hospitals.

 

[walletta]

Ah, the best laid plans of mice and men. I had resolved to take away Carthage's coal, following a review, but the the Dutch (no. 1 power) declared war on me with the puny Hittites pointlessly joining in so I put my plans on hold. The 'war' turned out to consist of a few landings, easily snuffed out. Then, as I was returning to plan A (well, plan B, come to think of it) the Dutch proved to be willing to sell their surplus coal for some Dyes and money. So I turned instead to constructing the railway and feverishly trying to finish the Hoover Dam. But now, a general conflagration has broken out, due to the operation of a series of MPPs and declarations so complicated that I'm not sure I'm not at war with myself. I am sure I am up against both France and Carthage simultaneously, both to my South. They are both at war with Spain, to my north. So Spain will get a RoP so she can do as much of my fighting as possible. I now have a formidable army, however, and reckon I can turn the tables by myself. Maybe I can get me some of my own coal.

It's crucial I win the race to Hoover. My capital is painfully slow and it's now being built by several of the AIs. Also researching combustion, with flight next and then I'll start bombing the crap out of everybody.

 

[walletta]

I bitterly regret not building a coal plant in Salamanca. I had plenty of time. A city producing 26 shields would be turning out another 7 or 8 per turn and I would be much nearer getting the Hoover Dam than I am. I bet I don't make it. Blast!

OTOH, the war goes well. I am clearly much more powerful than anyone on my continent: except, perhaps, the mysterious Germans, beside whose army mine is said to be 'weak' but which has only about a third of the number of cities - and most of mine are at or near size 12 and in good production - and who at one time had more than 26,000 gold in the treasury. Anyhow, they are at war with Spain, for no discernible reason since they are at the southern end of the continent and Spain is in the far north. As I don't want Germany fighting me, I have given it a RoP to facilitate its assault on my, er, ally in the fight against France. Hopefully, Spain doesn't notice or mind

Carthage's first assault is a powder puff and the French, already separated very easily from the eyesore city, have tossed in a stack of a dozen or so guerrillas and riflemen which will be picked off when I'm good and ready.

Meanwhile my other ally, the Dutch, are engaged in a similar conflict on the other continent mainly against India. Hopefully, India can hold out because I see the Dutch becoming over-mighty very soon. They have 20% pop to my 19% with 8 civs left.

Must get the Hoover Dam and then all will be well.

 

[walletta]

Missed Hoover Dam by 3 turns and trashed the game. I had in truth already reloaded it once after an astonishingly poor move, even for me, which resulted in the loss of a bunch of key cities. I could have got them back with some fiddling about but I couldn't be bothered.

So, two pre-builds missed out. The second should definitely not have been. I'll have to try again. Learned much though.

 

[Lord AJ]

I bitterly regret not building a coal plant in Salamanca. I had plenty of time. A city producing 26 shields would be turning out another 7 or 8 per turn and I would be much nearer getting the Hoover Dam than I am. I bet I don't make it. Blast!

If you had industrialization before you started the Hoover Dam, it would've been prudent to rush a coal plant in a turn. However if you already had a prebuild that carried something like 200-250 Shields then obviously you couldn't have switched.

ETA : o think you missed the Hoover Dam because the city you used to build out wasn't getting enough Shields. After steam power and factories, a production of 40 spt is quite easily achieved even with size 12 cities . With coal plants, it can go up to 60 - 70. A city giving 26 spt just doesn't fit at such a time.
Considering that this was your capital, there's reason to believe that the lack of Shields wasn't due to corruption but maybe due to a lack of hills and BGs so building the Dam in another city could've let you have it.

 

[walletta]

If you had industrialization before you started the Hoover Dam, it would've been prudent to rush a coal plant in a turn. However if you already had a prebuild that carried something like 200-250 Shields then obviously you couldn't have switched.

ETA : o think you missed the Hoover Dam because the city you used to build out wasn't getting enough Shields. After steam power and factories, a production of 40 spt is quite easily achieved even with size 12 cities . With coal plants, it can go up to 60 - 70. A city giving 26 spt just doesn't fit at such a time.
Considering that this was your capital, there's reason to believe that the lack of Shields wasn't due to corruption but maybe due to a lack of hills and BGs so building the Dam in another city could've let you have it.

You are dead right. I did in fact get the shield count up to 40 by mining previously irrigated squares but it was too late. But leave all that aside. I have stunning news. The AI civs are reading this thread! They are now making a bee line for philosophy and/or cranking out the Great Library, having previously eschewed both in a sporting gesture to even up the odds. Maybe they have their own forum ....

 

[Lanzelot]

Come on, trashing a game just because you miss 1-2 wonders?! Wonders are dispensable anyway...

 

[walletta]

Come on, trashing a game just because you miss 1-2 wonders?! Wonders are dispensable anyway...

Not just because of that. First, I had already reloaded it once because of a stupid blunder, which ruined it as my first 'pure' DG win and, second, I had banked a lot on the HD particularly. I also wasted a lot of turns putting down outbreaks of anarchy and realised after a time that, in fact, it is quite a good idea to assign control of the 'boondocks' to the governor so far as popular moods are concerned. That leaves me to free to micromanage the moods in the core.

Anyway, these technical weaknesses in the late middle game will be ironed out. I shall emerge as a Civ III powerhouse yet! I feel it in my bones!! Braves! Fold up the teepees, put on your moccasins, fetch your tomahawks, unhook that poor sod over there from the torture trestle thing and go prang a bison! Tomorrow is another day!

 

[walletta]

Early Industrial Age, standard continents, DG Maya. I have the largest pop, tech lead, (just) highest GNP. Got a great start position with loads of space and no early pressure from anyone, Ivory an early GSL, built the GL and the Statue basically just slowly expanded without any major offensives. Now trying to put some clear blue water between me and the Greeks, neighbour to the south and second most powerful civ. Will start bombing them as soon as I have the bombers.

 

[walletta]

No oil!

ETA but the Byzantines had more than their fair share so I 'borrowed' some of theirs, which involved my first use of ironclads - best unit in the game! They sink anything with sails, are cheap to build and upgrade to destroyers for only 90g. Wow! When you have no oil they are not at all bad. Bit slow, though, but I only had a narrow channel that needed to be dominated by them and they were fine for that. Now lagging (and at war with) India and Greece (at peace) in the tech race but I expect to win this one. My first unaided.

 

[walletta]

A lull in the fighting with Greece allowed me to switch to Communism (only 8 turns of anarchy this time) without adverse consequences. It really is a pain micro-managing a large, unhappy, corrupt Republic. Communism brings all the outliers into play.

Now back at war with Greece, trying to capture Athens and its important wonders but screwing things up badly (lost two armies to a culture flip for a start ). It's proving a tough nut to crack so may have to isolate the city and starve and bombard it down below 7 before renewing the assault. Meanwhile, India is running away with the tech lead. If this were an emperor level game it would be trivially easy now but the tech race never slackens at DG.

Question: what does the sentry function do for, for example, flak units?