From demigod to klutz

[walletta]

I agree with some of what you said. walleta's questions might be basic and his skipping Emperor without actually mastering the Emperor AI to play demigod wasn't something that should've been done. But even then the person's still learning things, albeit the hard way, that is falling and getting up again to do it right. Perhaps after he has won this demigod game, even if with reloading and all, he'll be able to do much better at Emperor because what he's facing makes him move out of his comfort zone. What I feel is that learning and improving is important, no matter how you do it.

Well, I am ditching this one because it seems after all that the two cows maybe don't make up for other problems and I certainly don't need an unfavourable start position to add to the challenge. But you are dead right that attempting to play demigod (so far, only one win after much, much cheating) has enormously improved my emperor level play. I think that was a great way to learn.

This thread is for me to post my musings on the challenges I face and for anyone who wants to to chip in. It has a piss-taking title because I consider myself a bit of a dullard at this game compared to the experts. I don't like making a fool of myself any more than the next person but it is a promise I made myself not to mind. I'll talk to myself happily enough but would much rather engage with others, especially if I can learn something. Who knows, maybe one day I will be able to explain the game to others like me. That would be seriously cool.

Btw. to save all this she/he business, I am a guy.

 

[justanick]

Cities can never be "too big"...

Yes they can. They are to big when reducing their size by building settlers or workers will do more good than harm.

Especially the ones around the capital.

Yes they are, especially when having no cities around those around the capital. You need to calculate in the costs of warriors for military police becoming useless and poor growth during anarchy if cities are big. Lettings cities grow for real is something for the time after leaving desporism, but then it needs to happen truely fast.

Better have a few big ones around the capital than many small ones spread out. That way you get much more commerce and shields from the same number of citizens, simply because of less corruption. (Of course you will later need many small ones as well, to keep unit upkeep at bay, but that's not important in the beginning. Better let the AI build those towns for you and save the effort of building so many setters... Rather let the cities grow and build something useful like horsemen instead...)

It is better to spread out first. This way you save trouble with AI, cultural flips, get higher net food, can thus "finance" more scientists and you get more resources and luxuries that you will need, even if only to get philo first. By slowing the growth of the more corrupt towns and by no longer building workers and settlers in the core towns those core towns will grow big enough soon. The low corruption needs to be utilized properly, but there is the need for long term thinking, too. There needs to be a proper balance between growth in the semiperiphery and thus long term yields and the immediate yields in the core cities, that are the not unimportant either.

I have made the experience that keeping cities small allows to get republic ASAP, but it depends on many details.

Also happiness should not be a concern. If a city is "too big" for your happy cap, you can always turn some citizens into scientists instead of increasing the lux slider. It's better having that scientist/taxman than not having that citizen at all. So I can never understand, why people voluntarily slow down growth because of "happiness problems"...

Sure, but scientists are only the way to go when corruption is high. Else increasing the luxusslider is the way to go.

So it's not that easy after all despite the two cows.

True. Still this position is better than average.

We also need to take into account that this is a huge map with very high tech costs,

I missed that detail. 1000 BC might be too ambitious then. But it is not impossible either.

I guess I am supposed to create specialist scientists when there is nothing to build.

That is not quite the way you should proceed. It costs growth and growth is important.

Once built, it allows, permanently, for one extra non-unhappy citizen in the town/city/metro at a cost of 1gpt.

Which can be gotten by increased luxus slider. So the net gain is zero at best. Later this will change because you have universities.


As for the learning curve it is better too be slightly too ambitious than being to unambitious.

 

[walletta]

Well, I hope you and Lanzelot battle this one out here, if you have the time and the patience, because I find this highly instructive and interesting. You have two very different strategies.

Thanks for confirming that 1000 BC is probably a bit too much to aim for. I was going nuts last night wondering why I was 750 years late!

I guess the high tech costs make it a tougher nut to crack. Still, I have found it is possible to get to the MA in reasonable shape, tech wise, then the AI takes off and I need your Republic thing to overhaul them, or Lanzelot's war making or something.

 

[walletta]

Justanick, the problem I encountered was that, with no temples, barracks, walls etc to build using your method, I ended up producing too much other stuff: settlers with nowhere to go, or costly warriors (which can no longer be built once you hook up to iron) or workers. OK you can't have too many workers but then you end up with a lot of beautifully developed tiles and no citizens working them! Aaarrrgghhh!!!!!!

 

[Lanzelot]

We now have a fascinating doctrinal dispute between Justanick and Lanzelot who suggest two radically different playing methods, in itself an indicator of the games richness.

Exactly, there is no single "best strategy". Like in chess there are different possibilities, which may work equally well. (Or not so well, depending on circumstances.)

I tried a few turns in the Maya game now, and it's indeed tricky to play. The first major decision already comes on turn 0: there is a coastline visible in the east. Is it a lake or is it the sea? As we can see, we don't have any fresh water at our starting location, so we won't get the +1 food in the city center and we won't be able to irrigate one of the cows, that would mean +4fpt would be the maximum, if we settle in place. Of course we want +5fpt. So we could gamble and move the settler 1E. If it's a lake, we would have +5fpt and 10spt at size 5 (2 mined BGs, 2 mined cows and a mined grassland), perfect for a 4-turn settler/warrior combo!
But if it's the sea, we will be at +2fpt instead of +3fpt for the first ten turns, seriously hampering our growth.

In the end I settled in place. Two cows is nothing to be sneezed at, so why take a risk? First research is Alphabet, and I build warrior, warrior, warrior, worker, granary.
Two warriors for MP and one for scouting the vicinity. The hut popped by culture-expansion of course gives me barbs

Alphabet took 42 turns. I could have bought it like 15 turns earlier, but they wanted 6gpt, which would then mean 50 turns for Writing, so I rather finished it myself.

When I was able to bring fresh water to one of the cows, I had a 4-turner and expansion went much faster. Writing then took only 21 turns (1450 BC).
The Byzantines however, already had Writing in 1870 BC, in 1675 already three nations, so I took no chances and went for Philosophy directly. But nevertheless, in 1350 BC Spain discovered Philosophy, while I still had ~10 turns to go.

So I think, because of the lack of rivers (not enough commerce, no extra food from the agricultural trait), the lack of space around the capital and the big stretch of jungle, this is actually a pretty difficult start, despite the two cows. 350 BC for Republic seems to be pretty good, while justanick's target date of 1000 BC is completely utopic for this map. I doubt whether it is at all possible to be first to Philosophy, let alone managing the slingshot...

Attached is my 1350BC, when Spain discovered Philosophy. I will play on to Republic to see, when I can achieve it.

 

[walletta]

Thanks Lanzelot. It warms the cockles of my heart to learn that it is actually a difficult start position, even for a zen master. I'll try to figure out how to download and look at your save this evening - don't think I have ever done that before.

 

[Lanzelot]

It is better to spread out first. This way you save trouble with AI, cultural flips, get higher net food, can thus "finance" more scientists and you get more resources and luxuries that you will need, even if only to get philo first.

This is right "in general", but take a look at this particular map: the AI is ages away, so you can take all the time you want for spreading out. Even in 1350 BC the closest AI town is at "5th ring distance" to my capital. It will be another couple of centuries before the AI is indeed threatening to settle any location that I would want. On the other hand, there is no good land outside the first ring: all jungle! So I think here it is better to get the first ring productive first and then worry about that jungle. (Of course a few second ring towns are necessary to give the first ring more space. Also I settled one town on the spices in the jungle and will soon settle one further south by the wines.)

And: please take into account that I like to "exaggerate" a bit in order to get my point across. Of course expansion is good and many cities are good. (And peeling off a worker whenever a town gets "too big" is also good.) But some people, especially beginners, sacrifice too much for the sake of quickly settling too many useless size-1 towns. I.e. they sacrifice the power of the core for useless boon-towns. Often I see the capital building settlers at size 3, or workers improving tiles for crap towns while the capital still has not enough tiles to be fully productive. It is for students like these that I say "don't expand too fast. First make sure your core is productive and powerful, and only if this is provided for, think about expansion into non-productive lands"

@waletta: never build temples... Here justanick and me agree completely, so you can be assured that it is a complete waste of shields. That 2/2/3 tile you are talking about is not realistic. (If there is such a tile, it is already worked by one of the earlier citizens. The extra citizen that the temple "allows" usually gets a 2/1/1 tile under Despotism. So that tile just pays the maintenance for the temple and gets one extra shield, meaning it has payed off after 60 turns. Anything else you can build for 60s will pay off much much earlier.

 

[walletta]

This is right "in general", but take a look at this particular map: the AI is ages away, so you can take all the time you want for spreading out. Even in 1350 BC the closest AI town is at "5th ring distance" to my capital. It will be another couple of centuries before the AI is indeed threatening to settle any location that I would want. On the other hand, there is no good land outside the first ring: all jungle! So I think here it is better to get the first ring productive first and then worry about that jungle. (Of course a few second ring towns are necessary to give the first ring more space. Also I settled one town on the spices in the jungle and will soon settle one further south by the wines.)

And: please take into account that I like to "exaggerate" a bit in order to get my point across. Of course expansion is good and many cities are good. (And peeling off a worker whenever a town gets "too big" is also good.) But some people, especially beginners, sacrifice too much for the sake of quickly settling too many useless size-1 towns. I.e. they sacrifice the power of the core for useless boon-towns. Often I see the capital building settlers at size 3, or workers improving tiles for crap towns while the capital still has not enough tiles to be fully productive. It is for students like these that I say "don't expand too fast. First make sure your core is productive and powerful, and only if this is provided for, think about expansion into non-productive lands"

@waletta: never build temples... Here justanick and me agree completely, so you can be assured that it is a complete waste of shields. That 2/2/3 tile you are talking about is not realistic. (If there is such a tile, it is already worked by one of the earlier citizens. The extra citizen that the temple "allows" usually gets a 2/1/1 tile under Despotism. So that tile just pays the maintenance for the temple and gets one extra shield, meaning it has payed off after 60 turns. Anything else you can build for 60s will pay off much much earlier.

But, but, but - after despotism comes some form of productive government and the whole of the rest of the game throughout which the little ole temple will be attracting the faithful, bringing in the peasants from the countryside and tending to advance the greater glory of the Empire! And we Mayans sacrifice almost no virgins at all in our temples neither!

OK, ok, if you two agree then I must comply. But I'm going for a different map, hoping to get some rivers this time. I can't be doing with any obstacles to overcome. Demigod itself is obstacle enough. The thing is - do agricultural civs want wet or dry maps?

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, I played on. Philosophy was discovered in 1125 BC (13 turns). At this time already 3 civs had it, but 3 others didn't and I got Bronze, Iron, Masonry, Mathematics, Literature, Map Maing, The Wheel, Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial for it.

Interesting was what Hannibal was willing to shell out:



Obviously he didn't know the rest of the world yet?!

Next research now is Code of Laws, which is still unkown at the moment, but will probably soon be discovered: some civs already have Currency and Construction!!
But I can probably get some more techs for CoL from the backward nations.

 

[walletta]

Have you made contact with any of the civs on the other continent yet? I found it impossible to get to them by curragh, despite circumnavigating my continent. I concluded the earth was flat and that you would fall off the edge if you ventured too far out into the darkness.

 

[Lanzelot]

Soon after discovering Philosophy, I met Germany by curragh, though not sure they are on a different continent yet. In any case, they were backward and I had lots of other trade possibilities, netting me Mysticism, Polytheism, Horseback Riding and ~600 gold, which I used for embassies everywhere and running 100% science for the rest of CoL and Rep.

(By the way, why are they pink?! I immediately had to think about "Bismarck in Tutus"...)

I also saw dark borders in the West, though my Curragh sank, before I could make contact. I'm currently sending a galley to try again.

 

[walletta]

Soon after discovering Philosophy, I met Germany by curragh, though not sure they are on a different continent yet. In any case, they were backward and I had lots of other trade possibilities, netting me Mysticism, Polytheism, Horseback Riding and ~600 gold, which I used for embassies everywhere and running 100% science for the rest of CoL and Rep.

(By the way, why are they pink?! I immediately had to think about "Bismarck in Tutus"...)

I also saw dark borders in the West, though my Curragh sank, before I could make contact. I'm currently sending a galley to try again.

I quite like the pink. I also like India's grey. Spain's horrible bluey green OTOH is, er, horrible. As to whether the Germans are on the same continent:

Spoiler :

They are

ETA Can you let me know in what year you come out of anarchy?

 

[walletta]

How do you move a file from the downloads folder in Firefox (or wherever it is) to the saved games within Civ III?

 

[justanick]

I guess the high tech costs make it a tougher nut to crack.

The way i see it the opposite is true. Biggers maps make it easier to be in a good shape if compared to a given AI. If compered to a given date things are different. At larger maps it takes some time to get empire up to specs simply because the needed (land) size of the empire is much larger.

OK you can't have too many workers but then you end up with a lot of beautifully developed tiles and no citizens working them! Aaarrrgghhh!!!!!!

I think you just proved that one can indeed have too many workers. The balance is not quite easy because after despotism and anarchy your cities will grow fast und thus you need many improved tiles then. But as a republic those workers will likely cost you 2 gtp, while during despotism they are within the free support limit.

Justanick, the problem I encountered was that, with no temples, barracks, walls etc to build using your method, I ended up producing too much other stuff: settlers with nowhere to go, or costly warriors (which can no longer be built once you hook up to iron) or workers.

So you did run short on land? Usually settling every place you can settle at and giving those cities enough workers requires enough time to have republic till you need to let your cities grow. Abundant shields would then be invested into
1. aqueducts
2. courthouses
3. market places
4. libraries.

This is a very simplified priority list. Where no aqueduct are needed a granary takes its place. If corruption is low the courthouse will move down in priority. If culture is needed for using tiles the library is more important, also few luxuries and a high research rate tend to favour libraries.

This is right "in general", but take a look at this particular map: the AI is ages away, so you can take all the time you want for spreading out. Even in 1350 BC the closest AI town is at "5th ring distance" to my capital.

This is because the map is large, therefore the corruption is low. So this should not change the balance. Or maybe it will in favour of rapid expansion?

And: please take into account that I like to "exaggerate" a bit in order to get my point across.

But it i soo much fun to take serios what was not meant as such. Maybe even the audience can enjoy this spectacle.

But some people, especially beginners, sacrifice too much for the sake of quickly settling too many useless size-1 towns. I.e. they sacrifice the power of the core for useless boon-towns. Often I see the capital building settlers at size 3,

But that is exactly what i like to do. Build Settler as soon as possible and build workers as soon as needed. At least the first will coincide with growth to size 3.

 

[walletta]

Thanks for those further points Justanick.

I tried a different map, once more playing the Maya on huge continental demigod. I got plenty of rivers but not so much breathing space as last time, with Rome and Spain hemming me in. I also got picked on by both of those, England and Germany all at once! However, through heroic defence I lost, then recaptured, only one city, captured a Spanish one, acquired two armies (one commanded by the great Eighteen Rabbit, no less) and went into anarchy in 550 BC which is a good 250 years earlier than my previous effort. I have the tech lead. Also no iron, no horses and only one poxy source of fur. So it's going to be all out war on Spain. Needless to say, my GA is over.

I got to Philosphy first, used it to get Code of Laws and then headed for Republic the hard way, accelerated by the GA. I will now proceed to screw up the Spanish campaign.

 

[Lord AJ]

Thanks for those further points Justanick.

I tried a different map, once more playing the Maya on huge continental demigod. I got plenty of rivers but not so much breathing space as last time, with Rome and Spain hemming me in. I also got picked on by both of those, England and Germany all at once! However, through heroic defence I lost, then recaptured, only one city, captured a Spanish one, acquired two armies (one commanded by the great Eighteen Rabbit, no less) and went into anarchy in 550 BC which is a good 250 years earlier than my previous effort. I have the tech lead. Also no iron, no horses and only one poxy source of fur. So it's going to be all out war on Spain. Needless to say, my GA is over.

I got to Philosphy first, used it to get Code of Laws and then headed for Republic the hard way, accelerated by the GA. I will now proceed to screw up the Spanish campaign.

Now this looks like a nicer start. I'll be following the events that roll out. [emoji6] [emoji6] [emoji6]

 

[Lord AJ]

By the way, why don't you try a game on standard maps. Research will be easier and meeting other civs will be quicker too.

 

[Lanzelot]

In 825 BC I discovered Code of Laws. No one had it at that time, so I was able to get Currency and then for Currency + CoL I got Construction and some 400 gold, and therefore I entered the Middle Ages at tech parity with the AI. Unfortunately my iron source had been exhausted some 10 turns after I connected it, so I wasn't able to upgrade any swordsmen.

Then I started Republic. Thanks to a few libraries that meanwhile had gone online, it was discovered in 390 BC. So only 2 turns faster than you. I guess you can be quite proud about that. By that time my galley had discovered the other continent and I used Literature and Republic to by Engineering, Feudalism, Monarchy and ~1100 gold by selling everything around. I also bought gems and incense from Spain for Engineering, so with 4 luxes all towns were happy even when I went into revolution. But the very same interturn a barb galley disrupted the connection to Spain, and goodbye gems and incense... I had to hire some scientists and entertainers, but fortunately only one town will starve during anarchy.

So in 390 BC I'm at tech pararity with the tech leader Greece, and up something compared to all remaining civs. A big portion of the jungle is cleared, and I also have 17 swordsmen, which will now advance towards India, as they are no longer needed for MP. Also 10 more warriors and 1200 gold in the bank for upgrading them. That should do a bit of damage, while the core towns can use their shields for completing necessary infrastructure, some libs and aqueducts and then a lot of marketplaces.

Here is the tech situation:



Depending on the desired VC one could now start with Invention and go for Military Tradition, or start with Monotheism and bee-line for Education. So I would say, even though Republic was reached quite late, the worst is over now, and different plans are possible. Of course one priority is to secure the horses between our land and the Carthagineans, and to use the swordsmen before they eat up too much gold. Perhaps it would be a good exercise to continue from that save?!

 

[justanick]

I guess the high tech costs make it a tougher nut to crack.

The way i see it the opposite is true.

I should probably relativate this. On large and huge maps like here AI has more goody huts to farm techs from. Barbarians give AI a great initial advantage. I therefore have concluded for myself, that playing with no barbarians is the better choice at higher difficulty setting.

@Lanzelot: As this is a huge map, your main error is too slow expansion. Corruption here is super low, so founding more cities is very profitable. A good goal would be to found 56 cities as 56 cities would have less than 50% rank corruption as a republic with VP and with courthouse and police in the city and even without the police station it would still be 47. While having less than 56 cities getting more via war has an increased priority. When you already have enough cities the civil build up is more of a priority.

Had you founded 30 to 40 cities instead of 20 leaving Despotism earlier might have succeeded.

 

[walletta]

Now this looks like a nicer start. I'll be following the events that roll out. [emoji6] [emoji6] [emoji6]

Never underestimate the incompetence of a bad commander . In a stunning reversal of history, the two Mayan armies, with their auxiliary javelin throwers and spears, marched directly on Madrid and quickly captured it. Unfortunately, the victorious armies were stunned by the magnificence of the Spanish capital and so lost in revelry and wenching that, within a short while, the whole lot vanished as the morning mist in something our historians called a 'culture flip'. The hordes of Spanish slaves captured in this campaign in no way compensated for the disastrous and irreparable loss.

In truth, the campaign was lent a desperate air from the start due to the foolish decision to commence construction of the Heroic Epic in the capital when we should have been mass producing javelins.

By the way, why don't you try a game on standard maps. Research will be easier and meeting other civs will be quicker too.

Well I was told that a huge map was good for finding isolated, weak Civs and exploiting them. In the current game, my damaged but still seaworthy curragh has located another land mass and made contact with a strange race of black people who call themselves the zooloo. They may become a source of slaves one day but presently there seems no obvious way to exploit the connection.