Furor Teutonicus = Poor choice

[Peng Qi]

I actually think that a lot of thought went into the UAs and UUs and UBs to make the civs play the way they behaved in real life over time. Think about it, and we'll use the current subject as an example:

Germany
-In ancient times, are encouraged to run around subduing other small tribes, and possibly invade other nations with a swarm of barbarians.
-In medieval times, are encouraged to maintain a large standing army of relatively low-quality troops, which especially facilitates defense, but can be used for some offense as well. You're probably pretty deep into honor at this point, too, and so your defense will be spread across your empire to get happiness and culture bonuses, only to come together during war, as the Holy Roman Empire behaved.
-Once the Industrial and Modern eras are in swing, Blitzkrieg is encouraged with a superior mobile UU. This, I think, might be the one area Germany needs a boost. They don't feel as dominant in modern times as I think they should. They should definitely be at their strongest at the beginning and end of the game and weak in the middle.

 

[Veltemaster]

Hi guys,

as my first post after my introduction here on this forum last night, I would like to share some of my ideas with you on this matter, which may cause you to think differntly about the reasoning behind the Furor Teutonics adavantage.

I get the feeling therse is a tendency to focus on the kind of Germany that came into being as the direct reslt of a huge struggle between the colonial powers of that time (1914-1918). With the follow up war of verngeange and domination, that had been motivated for a large part by a feeling of great injustice among the German people about the conditions for capitulization that had completely destroyed their economy after the first great war.

So if you only look at the 20th century, which I could very well imagine would stand out the most among people that live in the USA, because you're country's introduction with the German people started for most US citizens with the notion that you would go to war with these guys. So in that respect an advantage based on that inglorious period in time, could seem logical.

However, is this really fair to the German people? Would they themselves like to be rembered as a country that was great at mass producing panzer divisions?

If I had to make this choice, keeping in mind how sensitive these matters still are, even up to this day, because their are still many people living this day who have experienced the horrors of the second world war first hand, I feel it is actually a rather great idea to grant them an advantage that has to do with a part of history that nobody has any personal recolection of, namely the time of the Teutonic Order, a military order forged in the 13th century.

As you can learn by just reading through wikipedia for about five minutes, these knights were not only great warriors with an uncanny talent for organization, but in their wars of conquest into the lands of their eastern neighbors, they employed armies of mercenaries on a scale that was pretty unique for that period in time.

Because of the way they were forced to organize themselves, having their feudal members spread out over such a large area, the core of their army had to remain rather small, with the capacity to quickly increase in numbers, by augmenting their forces with volunteers and mercenaries when the need arose.

So regardless of whether the Furor Teutonics advantage will give you the edge you'd prefer, I'd personally much rather play Germany as they had operated fort over five hundred years of history, up until the Napoleonic wars, instead of feeling like a fascist panzerbuilding stormbahnfuhrer, if the game would only focus on the dark pages in history.

Remember people, when you are suggesting germany should have an advantage that has to do with their railway system, what these railroads were used for during the second world war!

I hope some of you will review some their opinions after reading the above story.

I'm off to playing Bismarck again, in a game were I try to gather a huge horde of barbarians and have pitted myself against all of the most aggressive AI's. I consider this my personal quest of vengeance for all the times these bastards went all zerglike on me, because I wasn't playing like a warmongerer at the time.

Greets and happy gaming!

 

[Rooftrellen]

So regardless of whether the Furor Teutonics advantage will give you the edge you'd prefer, I'd personally much rather play Germany as they had operated fort over five hundred years of history, up until the Napoleonic wars, instead of feeling like a fascist panzerbuilding stormbahnfuhrer, if the game would only focus on the dark pages in history.

My personal problem with this kind of thinking is that Germany has not existed for over 500 years. It hasn't existed for even 200 years.

Thinking about it like this would be like having Sitting Bull as the leader of America or Boudicca as the leader of England. In fact, the Sitting Bull thing would at least fit the time period in which the United States existed as a country.

500 years ago, the idea of the country of Germany would be unconceivable...the idea of "country" would have been considered radical, even.

Considering the history of the land back hundreds of years is not more fair to German people today. It is unfair to those people that achieved great things before Germany existed.

Germany did not resist conquests of Italy while France was conquered. The Germanic tribes resisted the conquests of Rome while Gaul was conquered. Aligning these peoples with their modern counterparts ignores their importance in history.

 

[Veltemaster]

I don't think it is really fair to the whole of the argument I am trying to make here to point out that what we consider to be a country today, did not exist in those days. There was a society there of people, that granted, did not yet have the sense of unity we know today. But then again, nationalism wasn't really an important concept in Europe until the European rulers needed a way to encourage people to embrace the idea of conscription. A tool that they used to create massive armies within a generation.

The people that lived in the area that is now the political power we know as Germany still are for the most part the ancestors of the people we call Germans these days.

If you apply this argument to many other civilizations, that don't fit the rather limiting view of being a unified nation during the part of their history that has defined their culture the most, then you could probably criticize a lot of other choices the game designers have made.

So, I'm sorry but I think my argument still stand.

 

[woodshadows]

My personal problem with this kind of thinking is that Germany has not existed for over 500 years. It hasn't existed for even 200 years..

that's a really narrow point of view, i like the fact that ciV has decided to include civs like the Polynesians, the Celts, civs which may not have ever qualified for the modern definition of a 'nation state' but which made large contributions to world history. what is a 'nation state' anyhow? a political unity over a geographical area.. bleh. This obsession with the fact that Germany wasn't unified until late in their history is kind of silly, it's like saying that all the contributions that the German people made, in fact their entire history, has zero relevance simply because they were not unified under a single political head and that we should therefore completely ignore that part of their history.

 

[Veltemaster]

Well I'm glad you wrote that Woodshadows, but I'd like to add that he was only commenting on the one phrase that I added more as personal flavor, rather than being a decisive argument in this matter.

It is easy to lose focus of the context in which something has been written, when your emotions are triggered by one phrase that you do not agree with.

The main issue was, whether the Unique Advantage the German civilization gets in Civilization V is appropriate when you consider their history as a whole.
I will say: absolutely yes.

The fact that the people that would eventually be unified under one ruler and would embrace the idea of being part of the German nation, had only been made possible because of a broad shared cultural history.

So no hard feelings towards Rooftellen. Considering this was my first post, I feel I should be making friends and not antagonizing people, because of having a slightly different perspective on things.

Peace

 

[ferretbacon]

You can't forget the fact that this is a game; to that end, Germany, in its current state, is obviously geared towards warmongering, but, due to its current UA/UUs, it lacks... something.

For the sake of diversity in Civ options and for the sake of making Germany more focused, I still advocate a revamp of Germany, as it currently is, and in the possible addition of the Holy Roman Empire (or somesuch civilization), to represent the German region before it was known as Deutschland.

You argue that Germans would not wish to be represented only for their ability to wage war between 1917-1945; well, they're not. Instead they are represented for their ability to wage war between 200 B.C. to the present.

If you focused them a bit more, they could have other aspects to reflect Germany as the modern country, for instance a UB that increases production to simulate Germany's strength as an industrial powerhouse (which, of course, wouldn't hurt for warmongering at the end of the day; more = more ).

 

[woodshadows]

Well I'm glad you wrote that Woodshadows, but I'd like to add that he was only commenting on the one phrase that I added more as personal flavor, rather than being a decisive argument in this matter.

It is easy to lose focus of the context in which something has been written, when your emotions are triggered by one phrase that you do not agree with.

The main issue was, whether the Unique Advantage the German civilization gets in Civilization V is appropriate when you consider their history as a whole.
I will say: absolutely yes.

The fact that the people that would eventually be unified under one ruler and would embrace the idea of being part of the German nation, had only been made possible because of a broad shared cultural history.

So no hard feelings towards Rooftellen. Considering this was my first post, I feel I should be making friends and not antagonizing people, because of having a slightly different perspective on things.

Peace

I read all the posts so I think I understood the context.. not entirely sure where you think I went wrong in my response? In any event, welcome to the forums, people around here have pretty thick skins, or rather the strict moderation ensures that we all pretend to have.

 

[woodshadows]

You can't forget the fact that this is a game; to that end, Germany, in its current state, is obviously geared towards warmongering, but, due to its current UA/UUs, it lacks... something.

For the sake of diversity in Civ options and for the sake of making Germany more focused, I still advocate a revamp of Germany, as it currently is, and in the possible addition of the Holy Roman Empire (or somesuch civilization), to represent the German region before it was known as Deutschland.

You argue that Germans would not wish to be represented only for their ability to wage war between 1917-1945; well, they're not. Instead they are represented for their ability to wage war between 200 B.C. to the present.

If you focused them a bit more, they could have other aspects to reflect Germany as the modern country, for instance a UB that increases production to simulate Germany's strength as an industrial powerhouse.

Good points, however given civ players general dislike for modern UU's/UB's, to focus Germany upon it's modern incarnation would possibly make them even less desirable to play. Imagine a stormtrooper unit in place of the landsknecht.. while it might be sexy and strong it would stilll come extremely late in the game, where the landsknecht is early enough to make a difference. I hate the UA from a gameplay perspective and I think it could totally be changed around, but I think they could do this in such a way to reflect both the ancient Germanic people and the modern.. some general war trait, perhaps the ability to sacrifice one point of population for a military unit, or something along those lines.

 

[BSPollux]

I hate the UA from a gameplay perspective and I think it could totally be changed around, but I think they could do this in such a way to reflect both the ancient Germanic people and the modern.. some general war trait, perhaps the ability to sacrifice one point of population for a military unit, or something along those lines.

Yep because Germany is the ultimate warmonger. it was that way allways and will be like that forever because you guys watch too many cheap Hollywood movies and avoid books like poison!

That country is rich with history but you only see ten years. With the same reasoning we could have Americas UA as 'GWB - War of Terror: Raze a conquered City to start a golden age'.

 

[woodshadows]

Yep because Germany is the ultimate warmonger. it was that way allways and will be like that forever because you guys watch too many cheap Hollywood movies and avoid books like poison!

That country is rich with history but you only see ten years. With the same reasoning we could have Americas UA as 'GWB - War of Terror: Raze a conquered City to start a golden age'.

Germany through its history has been a militaristic culture, esp. with Prussian dominance, both prior and after to unifiication. Read some Tacitus or Gibbon to see the character and manners of ancient Germans to try to convince me they weren't a warlike peoples. If you want to talk about the more cultural side to Germans, well.. this was more an Austrian thing, which while sharing the same language, has had such a long period of separation and opportunity to develop its own unique culture and identity, independent of Prussian dominance.

 

[Veltemaster]

@Woodshadow, no I wasn't talking about you, with the remark I made about it sometimes being difficult to keep the focus on the main issue.

I don't mind that Germany is really well equiped for war in Civilization by the way. The game needs a couple of civilization that are good at that, simply because Military Domination is one of the ways in which you can win the game!
I would me more bothered if Ghandi had been totally geared for war by the game designers.
You could probably make a good argument that they produced some of the greatest thinkers in the world, philosophers, psychoanalysists, rocket scientists, religious reformers. So some sort of Great Person generation bonus, would spring to mind considering that part of their history.
But for the most part, especially the way this thread started, most people would just like a more straightforward production bonus or something... Which I very much disagree, because there are plenty of ways in which you can increase your production by just playing a little smarter. The Furor Teutonics allows you after buiding just a couple of what I like to refer to as "negotiators", units that go after barbarian encampments and get those brutes to join you by beating the holy bejeezus out of them. So when you have to spend less time producing units, you can spend more and developing your cities or anything else you might like to uses those hammers for.

Peace

 

[BSPollux]

Germany through its history has been a militaristic culture, esp. with Prussian dominance, both prior and after to unifiication. Read some Tacitus or Gibbon to see the character and manners of ancient Germans to try to convince me they weren't a warlike peoples. If you want to talk about the more cultural side to Germans, well.. this was more an Austrian thing, which while sharing the same language, has had such a long period of separation and opportunity to develop its own unique culture and identity, independent of Prussian dominance.

Its not about being militaristic or not, because every country in Europe had/has a militaristic side in the past or right now. Thats exactly what I ment: You can show examples for every countrys 'militaristic side'. Thats not the point. The question is if that particular country is significantly more militaristic then others.

And then I'd like to know how you come to say that every great person whos born in Germany somehow transforms into an Austrian. That thing was either a joke or... or what? What was it?

 

[ferretbacon]

The question is if that particular country is significantly more militaristic then others.

I think Germany is, historically, significantly more militaristic than its neighbors. Of course every country worth its salt has some sort of military, but few are in the same class as Germany in terms of military proficiency, aptitude, and general tenacity.

Japan, when it was industrializing and modernizing after the Meiji Restoration, looked about the world for examples of what it ought to aspire to. For its navy, Japan looked at Britain and, to a lesser degree, the United States.

For its land army, Japan considered the German Empire to represent the apex of a land fighting force at the time. Germany would of course affirm this a little over half a century later when it fought in the two World Wars against overwhelming odds and held its own for longer than it probably should have, realistically.

 

[woodshadows]

Its not about being militaristic or not, because every country in Europe had/has a militaristic side in the past or right now. Thats exactly what I ment: You can show examples for every countrys 'militaristic side'. Thats not the point. The question is if that particular country is significantly more militaristic then others.

And then I'd like to know how you come to say that every great person whos born in Germany somehow transforms into an Austrian. That thing was either a joke or... or what? What was it?

I did not say that every great person born in Germany transformed into an Austrian. I do contend that a great many "great germans" were actually Austrians who are commonly considered German simply owing to the shared language. Are you a Germophile? You are getting very emotionally involved in this debate, so if this is a touchy subject we don't need to discuss it. Saying Germany wasn't a militaristic oriented state is like saying Rome wasn't because Rome produced Ovid and Virgil. Prussia upon it's very birth was a predominantly militaristic state, Prussia is the nation which would come to dominate over and unify the other German states lending its militaristic character to the whole. This argument is much too broad to be given justice to in a forum post here, but let's not argue things which even the most patriotic german historians wouldn't argue against.

 

[woodshadows]

@Woodshadow, no I wasn't talking about you, with the remark I made about it sometimes being difficult to keep the focus on the main issue.

I don't mind that Germany is really well equiped for war in Civilization by the way. The game needs a couple of civilization that are good at that, simply because Military Domination is one of the ways in which you can win the game!
I would me more bothered if Ghandi had been totally geared for war by the game designers.
You could probably make a good argument that they produced some of the greatest thinkers in the world, philosophers, psychoanalysists, rocket scientists, religious reformers. So some sort of Great Person generation bonus, would spring to mind considering that part of their history.
But for the most part, especially the way this thread started, most people would just like a more straightforward production bonus or something... Which I very much disagree, because there are plenty of ways in which you can increase your production by just playing a little smarter. The Furor Teutonics allows you after buiding just a couple of what I like to refer to as "negotiators", units that go after barbarian encampments and get those brutes to join you by beating the holy bejeezus out of them. So when you have to spend less time producing units, you can spend more and developing your cities or anything else you might like to uses those hammers for.

Peace

I'd like Furor Teutonicus a lot better if it were 100% conversion rather than the 50%. It would also be nice if the army maintenance cost was increased to a 50% savings. It's really one of the worst UAs by far in its current state and not particularly fun to play either. Really the only thing going for Germany is its landsknechts, which while being extremely powerful to spam are also extremely tedious to use. I'm not really a fan of a production bonus, there's a bunch of civs with that already and I find they all play rather boringly. Germany from the time of the Roman Empire, to the middle ages, to Prussia, to the modern nation of Germany has been known for its association with warfare, a UA which was interesting, fun, unique to Germany would really be in order. Faster promos on units, an extra movement on siege, ability to fully heal with promos instead of just +50, all sorts of options that would work and be stronger, more fun and more useful than the current one.

 

[TyBoy]

Yep because Germany is the ultimate warmonger. it was that way always and will be like that forever because you guys watch too many cheap Hollywood movies and avoid books like poison!

That country is rich with history but you only see ten years. With the same reasoning we could have Americas UA as 'GWB - War of Terror: Raze a conquered City to start a golden age'.

The American UA already is pretty focused on just one aspect of American history, pioneering and the westward expansion. It's a significant aspect of our history, but certainly doesn't come close to capturing the whole thing and may not even be the most significant aspect of it. When I really think about it, I'm not sure there is a single UA that even attempts to capture the whole character of a culture. Every one I can think of takes one notable aspect of the civ's history and gives them a bonus in that area.

For better or worse (okay, pretty much universally recognized as worse) probably the most notable roles of Germany in the modern era have related to warmongering and military build-up. It is what it is. A person can recognize that without judging all German people past and present based on it. The whole thing has very little to do with literacy.

Also, for what it's worth, 10 years? I guess if you only count time of active warfare, but also consider arms races/military buildup leading up to those wars and you're looking at most of the first half of the 20th century.

 

[asmartlittleman]

Germany's UA has a lot more hidden effects that actually help Germany's production and economy that reflects modern day Germany. You can save a ton of production early in the game by not having to build military units. You can focus on building up your cities and have an army with essentially an army that did not cost you one hammer. With your cities now having lots of buildings they will be more powerful and production in those cities will grow. Economically you save gold on arguably the number one or two gold maintenance issue in the game your army. So this UA makes perfect sense your economy will be better and your cities will also be better.

 

[Rooftrellen]

that's a really narrow point of view, i like the fact that ciV has decided to include civs like the Polynesians, the Celts, civs which may not have ever qualified for the modern definition of a 'nation state' but which made large contributions to world history. what is a 'nation state' anyhow? a political unity over a geographical area.. bleh. This obsession with the fact that Germany wasn't unified until late in their history is kind of silly, it's like saying that all the contributions that the German people made, in fact their entire history, has zero relevance simply because they were not unified under a single political head and that we should therefore completely ignore that part of their history.

What I don't understand is why you would be happy that a civ like Polynesia would be included but also say Germany is fine as is, from a historical perspective...

It would be like renaming Polynesia as New Zealand...using a modern country in the area to represent all that time.

It would also be like removing Rome and replacing it with Italy.

The start of the history of the country of Germany is just very little before its unification. Claiming that the history of "Germany" goes back 500 years is like saying the history of the "United States" goes back 500 years. There may have been actions that would eventually lead to that "civ" but it wasn't even conceived.

Goethe, one of the most important writers ever, was born in 1710 in Frankfurt. Not Frankfurt, Germany, but one of the Imperial Free Cities of the Holy Roman Empire. He died in 1832 in the Duchy of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, part of, what was at that time, the German Confederation, which included Austria...which certainly did not at any point in history break away from Germany and declare independence, so there's still no "Germany" at that point, just an alliance of German speaking states.

To be honest, if someone told me that right now, I could change Germany in civ in any way I wanted, I'd only pause due to the fact that their UA and first UU work together in a way no other civ does, making it unique and hard to change for the value it adds to the game, without anyone else getting a similar feel.

If not for that, I'd want it changed as quickly as I'd want to see Spain changed if they had a Celtic Swordsman UU or America got the Mohawk Warrior. Just because it existed on that land before doesn't make it a part of the history of that civ.

Leave the Celts their achievements, leave the Native Americans theirs...and don't takeaway the achievements of those that lived on the land we now call Germany just because their lands ended up united.

 

[Danei]

Yeah, it's a little skimpy on the historical accuracy, but not much more so than giving Norwegian ski infantry and "Viking fury" to the same civilization. I don't blame them for setting it up that way. Unless they wanted to put in a separate "Gaul" civilization, I don't see why they can't fudge it a little and pretend the tribes north of ancient Rome were part of the history of Bismarck's Germany.

The whole thing is already pretty silly, given that your civilization retains the same leader, flag, and flavor characteristics for 6000 years.

So as long as the gameplay is interesting, I don't care.