Further Exploration of the City Improvements "When to Build It?"

[gorf37]

I've worked everyone's comments into the listing in my 2nd post below.

Hi all,

I'm inspired by this thread regarding trap buildings
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=446004

And I'm thinking about starting development of a guide to city improvements. I feel like there's little out there to show beginners the cost of building a poorly chosen city improvement at the wrong time. I'm still trying to determine the format and extent to the guide, so I'll leave it at that for now.

The real reason I'm writing is to show you all the breakdown of City Improvements I put together today. What do you think of this? :

This listing does not account for timing of improvements. Choosing the correct time to build is as important as choosing what to build.

5 Will be built in most cities. Cities that don't get this building are the exception to the rule.
Granery, Courthouse, Forge, Factory

4 Will be built in many cities, regardless of the game. Dependent on City specialization.
Barracks, Library, University

3 Will be built in a couple cities in almost every game. Sometimes good in many cities.
Airport, Bank, Laboratory, Levee, Lighthouse, Observatory

2 Comes-up in many games, but requires specific conditions to make it worthwhile.
Aqueduct, Monastery, Temple, Drydock, Grocer, Harbour, Intelligency Agency, Jail, Market, Stable, Theatre, Coal Plant

1 Rarely needed, but not always a bad choice. (Probably specific game conditions and victory conditions involved.)
Castle, Cathedral, Colosseum, Hydro Plant, Security Bureau, Supermarket, Walls

0 I'm sure it's fun to build, but I'm also pretty sure it's not helping you win.
Bomb Shelter, Broadcast Tower, Bunker, Customs House, Hospital, Industrial Park, Nuclear Plant, Public Transport, Recycling Centre,

 

[mtr12]

Hospitals and Recycling Centers are useful if you have very large cities lategame.

 

[Gwynnja]

I almost never build courthouses unless they're a unique or I have a corporation.

 

[Mylene]

I almost never build courthouses unless they're a unique or I have a corporation.

I was gonna post that too
Courthouses should not be on the list, they are usually a waste of time in the cities closer to your capital.

Those might be the biggest trap building in the game, when i look at how over-valued the Rathaus is.

 

[vicawoo]

Depends on the time frame.

 

[lymond]

I'd say LH should move from 3 to 4. Given for any coastal city - even though not all cities are coastal. (I'd almost bump it to 5 as it is a building that will be built in every city in which it can)

I'm more inclined to build a Monastery than most of the buildings in Line 3 - other than the LH

Line 2 is probably good for buildings essential to certain victory types like Cultural. I think Cathedrals (religious wonders) should go there, as saying it is rarely needed doesn't make much sense for a building crucial to a certain VC.

I agree courthouses are not a "5". I think "4" is fine for them though.

Granaries and Forges are pretty much the only buildings I"m certain to build in every city. (LH in every coastal, ofc) I will build Factories in most cities late game if my game goes that long and the Factory will add value to the victory - usually space. AND if I'm building a Factory I"m gonna build a Plant.

Why would you build an Intelligence Agency or Jail? (other than a rare EE game)

 

[coanda]

Recycling centers come so late in the game that they're rare, but they're good buildings; if a game drags on that long I usually try to get at least a few of them. On the other hand, Forges are not on the same level as Granaries. All production cities get forges; some commerce cities and GP farms will get them. But if you don't get silver/gold/gems, forges are often not worth it in early-to-mid game non-production cities.

 

[vicawoo]

You have to process at least 480 hammers for a non industrious forge to pay itself off. Not worthwhile in low hammer cities when your alternative is building wealth to race for liberalism or steel.

But if say you intend to build a bank/market/grocer, that's 200+300=500 hammers right there, or a barracks and a ton of cannons.

 

[kossin]

Courthouses are fine if you have the extra production available and no immediate use for it. The saved gpt and extra EP is worth it if you get them early enough.

Of course, if you spend 120H to save 2gpt then it's another story altogether.

Check if the building will pay back within 20~30 turns, that should be a decent return on investment.

 

[kossin]

You have to process at least 480 hammers for a non industrious forge to pay itself off. Not worthwhile in low hammer cities when your alternative is building wealth to race for liberalism or steel.

You may need the happiness if you have metal luxuries. Also it's often the case that Organized Religion is available, which cuts the cost down to 384H.

Bottom line: it's always situational. Take a look at
1) the city itself
2) the empire

Pick what contributes most.

 

[elmurcis]

I calculate if building will pay back in 1000 turns and courthouse gives 2 EP, which also is worth something (bonus research if targeted to one AI).
And if new city cost 20 gpt, than saving 10 is lot of money... and with corps it can be 20 saved gpt...

 

[Mylene]

Forge is huge for whipping units like Curassiers, the city actually doesn't need any mines if it has enough food.
Courthouses become more valuable later in the game, it is often hard to justify 120h (standard build) when you could build fail-gold with marble/stone instead, or even Science to reach a keytech 1-2 turns faster.

 

[Dirk1302]

As for your observations and also as a comment to the community here, bottomline, apart from diplo/cultural there are 2 ways to win the game, smash them early,in that case it doesn't matter much what you build, build what is necessary, stables/barracks etc.

Or you go more sophisticated for a later push or space win. In that case especially if you choose rushbuy build all monetary buildings. Markets and grocers both give you the means to run merchants which can be extremely useful.

Few days ago there was a thread bashing markets, most players chiming in were emp players claiming these are not needed, of course not if you wrap up easily on this level. Play deity from a not so easy start and you'll find you need these sort of buildings to win the more difficult games.

Forges are expensive, but even not industrious i try to build these always before other buildings. Not doing so just costs you 25% everytime you do something else and in the end you 'll find out that you needed that forge anyway.

 

[vicawoo]

You also can't say 20 or 30 turns, it has to be what's the cost of waiting to break even after 20 or 30 turns. Sometimes a 50 turn breakeven point is worthwhile, especially with a comfortable lead, sometimes 15 isn't.

Happiness value does take off some of the cost if there's no alternative, but forges are also useful in that some cities will have too much food to convert to well/specialists without caste. Unhappy citizens are a free 30 hammers.

All in all, it's good to have ballpark numbers to force you stop and think, rather than build automatically.

 

[mtr12]

As for your observations and also as a comment to the community here, bottomline, apart from diplo/cultural there are 2 ways to win the game, smash them early,in that case it doesn't matter much what you build, build what is necessary, stables/barracks etc.

I thought "smashing them early" was impossible on IMM/DEI? I've only seen one successful Axerush in a Deity game, and that was AZ's Mansa game. Even then he started with Copper in the BFC (and Mining/Wheel!) and had to make sacrifices like shutting down tech to fund Warrior upgrades.

 

[Dirk1302]

Forge is huge for whipping units like Curassiers, the city actually doesn't need any mines if it has enough food.
Courthouses become more valuable later in the game, it is often hard to justify 120h (standard build) when you could build fail-gold with marble/stone instead, or even Science to reach a keytech 1-2 turns faster.

Courthouses are/were overrated, they're good for esp in BTS. I know from the time i played vanilla/warlords when courthouses didn't even give this esp that they were seen as the supreme way to get out of an economic hole. We now know that currency for the extra TR/market in capital/building wealth on mines is far more effective than the occasional courthouse in far away cites. It was Burn (very good player) who suggested then that currency might be better in some cases, yes he was very cautious and modest in that idea,he shouldn't have been. Of course looking back courthouses were just horrible back then.

 

[yuchai]

Are Custom Houses so bad that they end up on 0? It seemed like a decent build to me when I had the GLH with overseas trade routes. Am I mistaken?

I'm also curious about factory being a 5 versus the power plants being 1 or 2. If the city has the factory it seems a no-brainer to me to get power (usually coal as hydro comes pretty late) with it. i.e. I either build none or both in a city.

 

[Dirk1302]

I thought "smashing them early" was impossible on IMM/DEI? I've only seen one successful Axerush in a Deity game, and that was AZ's Mansa game. Even then he started with Copper in the BFC (and Mining/Wheel!) and had to make sacrifices like shutting down tech to fund Warrior upgrades.

On immortal you can do any rush if the circumstances are right . On deity elepult is perfectly doable, there are many games on the forums showing this rush. And there are games from snaaty on the forum where he Axe rushed someone just out of spite. And iirc one of the games in my sig, i think Duckweed pt1 begins with a deity chariot rush. You just need to do what 's necessary. All those rules......

 

[Archon_Wing]

Why does nobody care about monuments?

I guess creative is pretty cool, but I don't always play those leaders.

 

[gorf37]

Alright! Lots of insightful replies. I've tried to capture what I've read here. Are the titles for the categories in need of tweaking? How's this?

This listing does not account for timing of improvements. Choosing the correct time to build is as important as choosing what to build.

5 Will be built in most cities. Cities that don't get this building are the exception to the rule.
Granery, Forge

4 Will be built in many cities, regardless of the game. Dependent on City specialization.
Barracks, Library, University, Factory, Lighthouse

3 Will be built in a couple cities in almost every game. Sometimes good in many cities.
Airport, Bank, Laboratory, Levee, Observatory, Market, Monument, Courthouse, Stable, Coal Plant

2 Comes-up in many games, but requires specific conditions to make it worthwhile.
Aqueduct, Monastery, Temple, Drydock, Grocer, Harbour, Theatre

1 Rarely needed, but not always a bad choice. (Probably specific game conditions and victory conditions involved.)
Castle, Cathedral, Colosseum, Hydro Plant, Security Bureau, Supermarket, Walls, Recycling Centre, Customs House, Hospital, Intelligency Agency, Jail,

0 I'm sure it's fun to build, but I'm also pretty sure it's not helping you win.
Bomb Shelter, Broadcast Tower, Bunker, Industrial Park, Nuclear Plant, Public Transportation

Bottom line: it's always situational. Take a look at
1) the city itself
2) the empire

Pick what contributes most.