Gallic Warrior, Jaguar or Praetorian?

[TheWilltoAct]

TMIT, In practice the AI never attacks your vultures out in the open.

By your own explanation, HAs would get slaughtered on any terrain by Spearmen, I really dont see you thinking very clearly on this one, HAs move faster than Vultures yes, but they are far weaker at attacking cites, and even weaker on open terrain because they get no defensive bonus.

If your single-move vultures are never attacked in the open, then TMIT's 2-move Horse Archers are also unlikely to be caught and engaged.

Any player who is comfortable at conquest on Deity will fare better with Vultures than HAs.

False.

Against any other ancient era unit including the HA, the Vulture is the top city attacker as it has the fewest weaknesses.

False.

Axes do not counter Vultures, not when controlled by the AI and simply stacked in a city. Every weakness you mention regarding the Vulture is far greater for the HA - weaker in the field and weaker when attacking cities than a vulture.

Except you are comparing apples to oranges, ignoring the difference in movement does not a complete argument make.

You are trying to tell me that HAs are more effective at attacking cities without Catapults than CR promoted axes or vultures, Im calling your bluff on that one, they arent and I'll do another city attack simulation when I have time to prove it.

Your simulation had better incorporate fewer defenders for the HA's to face, because they will reach cities faster before additional reinforcements have time to arrive. Also remember to attack first with 5 experience double-withdrawal promoted HA's to soften up defenders when facing poor odds.

The HAs movement point bonus is completely negated when you have to move it in a stack with catapults, they still move 1 tile per turn. Before longbows and IW, a Vultre is hands down the top city attacker, and it is still even stronger than HAs when you get to use catapults too.

TMIT never mentions catapults that I'm aware, so you can remove those from the equation. You do know restating a wrong point over and over doesn't make it any less false, right?

Everything that a HA can do, Vultures and Praets do it better.

You're wrong.

 

[username804]

Depressing, to see a superior player's advice brushed aside. Just more proof that these forum arguments are more academic than play in practice.

Mounted units, especially ones that come as early as Immortals or WC's, are a unique threat. If you have indeed "tried them all" in a rush scenario you know that the AI is more likely to build axes than spears (same with the human player typically, at least in single player). Pillaging metals might be an option, depending on how entrenched the source is. As always your mileage may vary depending on myriad conditions, which is to say absolute arguments are feeble here.

Your opinion of horse archers is mildly surprising given their popularity and proven utility on these forums. I suppose you despise them because you are ignorant of how to use them effectively? Certainly TMIT has demonstrated their use, spears are a potential threat but a manageable one.

I would honestly love to see TMIT win on Deity with just SPEARS, no NUKES and post that on youtube. Whatever CIV he picks, he absolutely cannot make any other unit than base SPEARS and he must go up against MONTY with NUKES.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I would honestly love to see TMIT win on Deity with just SPEARS, no NUKES and post that on youtube. Whatever CIV he picks, he absolutely cannot make any other unit than base SPEARS and he must go up against MONTY with NUKES.

Am I allowed to build the AP? .

As for the HA thing, go ahead and call my bluff, and then try to beat the HoF dates set by people using horse archers with vultures. Outside of marathon, I wish you luck, because you'll be needing it .

2 moves are that important. It's also a big part of why a lot of deity players choose cavalry over rifles despite rifles costing FAR less in if drafted. This does include Rusten, who is probably the best active player on here and who championed the advantages quite heavily (against some resistance) a few years back, before I knew how to play at noble.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Every deity level HA rush I've seen on this forum was done with catapults. EVERYTHING works with catapults.

In other news, I was reading the thread and came across HA+ Catapults. Who the heck does HA+ captaults? Can anyone care to link to any since I'm curious. That would put the 2 moves to waste, not to mention 2 expensive techs that you'd really only get if you Elepult. Horse archers don't guard captaults better than metal units either.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=412533 which lead to this game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7kJE7Gdc1k
I can find some with HAs, catapults weren't needed at all, despite the fact that Khan had metal and could build them spears. =p

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7954708&postcount=8
No catapults here I believe. Axes were there later on though.

 

[username804]

Am I allowed to build the AP? .

As for the HA thing, go ahead and call my bluff, and then try to beat the HoF dates set by people using horse archers with vultures. Outside of marathon, I wish you luck, because you'll be needing it .

2 moves are that important. It's also a big part of why a lot of deity players choose cavalry over rifles despite rifles costing FAR less in if drafted. This does include Rusten, who is probably the best active player on here and who championed the advantages quite heavily (against some resistance) a few years back, before I knew how to play at noble.

Yes you may build the AP. I have never won if I ever built it. I've captured it a few times but not won Diplomatic.

I usually win by Space Race or Conquest. or I quit out of boredom once I get to astronomy.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I probably have more AP wins than anything else. >.> Or what I term AP diplomation.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Yes you may build the AP. I have never won if I ever built it. I've captured it a few times but not won Diplomatic.

I usually win by Space Race or Conquest. or I quit out of boredom once I get to astronomy.

Look in the strategy guides for the two guides to the AP. One is specific on how to cheese the AP. It really isn't that hard. You found the AP in a dead religion, spread it heavily to your best friend or so and one each to every other Civ.

Some deity games can only be won by AP.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, the scariest part is definitely that window when you are building the AP, since you must adopt that heathen religion when building it. It's partially alleviated if you somehow got a popular religion, in which case you can build 99% of the AP under the popular religion, and briefly switch to your new one. Your AP will be under the obscure religion. Then just quickly swap out, and the window of vulnerability will be much smaller.