GEM: Espionage first draft

[Seek]

great post, the points I'd disagree with are:

1) I feel G&K is weaker in your point 4 than 3, as espionage currently DOES feel a bit tacked on imo

2) religious CSs boosting spaceship construction make no sense at all... I'd rather have them give GP points for example since faith can be used to buy GPs in the lategame.

Indeed, very interesting post by mitsho, agree with both assessment and proposed new missions.
1) I concur.
2) It makes perfect sense, have you not read The Sparrow? (Spoiler alert, it involves Jesuits in space!)

 

[mystikx21]

Fallout 2 when you reached San Francisco. Makes sense to me.

Mixing things up with more CS effects does sound appealing since any zero sum missions against other majors would just be annoying, and possibly require too much micro, and free lunch missions there are not a great idea. CS's are already operating like a free lunch (such by giving their resources off to an ally), so that idea has some appeal.

XP from the spy buildings would help them, but not very much if more spy levels can't be added.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

@mitsho: true, there needs to be something for situations where the current options are not very valuable. in my current game for example I don't need my spy for rigging and I'm ahead in tech so tech steal is not helpful either. using the spy for defense doesn't look good either because my science income is not centralized.

aside from that, I don't think using spies for counter espionage really works because it's simply not fun to use them that way. it might work better if spies were made more plentiful. still, I think it would be much better to make the espionage buildings fill this role. since it's a passive role and buildings work passive, while spies are active and can move around and be used to do something rewarding for the player.

if we had science stealing work like RAs instead of stealing techs, the mechanic would be equally useful for tech leaders and followers so it seems like another easy step in the right direction. you could also add gold stealing as an option.

another good option would be affecting AI relations. I love how intrigue works currently and it'd be nice to see it expanded.

 

[Stalker0]

aside from that, I don't think using spies for counter espionage really works because it's simply not fun to use them that way.

The idea thrown about was that spies could gain experience while at home, which I think is a good balance to having to keep spies on counterespinonage.

 

[wobuffet]

For stealing Gold and Culture, I was envisioning that resources are being transferred from one empire to another. Ideally it'd be calibrated so that
(1) each individual spy had a pretty marginal* impact (on the order of -5–10% of one yield in one City each); and
(2) if multiple Civs' spies were spying around in the same city, they'd get in each other way/slow each other down.

I think that if multiple Spies were deployed against you, this would be "annoying" in the same way that early-game Barbarians are annoying: challenging and requiring some work to deal with, but enhancing the overall experience. Certainly the number of spies should be determined in a more interesting/fun manner, and one involving active choice.

With respect to these two points, perhaps if counterespionage occasionally netted you an extra spy (i.e., a turncoat), leaving Spies in your own City would be more fun. I'm imagining an Opportunities-type box: "You have caught the Russian spy Denis! You can return him to his homeland (receive 100), execute him (0), or recruit him to your side (pay 200)."

Obviously, reworking the Spy system would be a large amount of work for Thal (and possibly others). But espionage as it is now is quite lackluster; in fact, I'd put it this way: if G&K didn't have espionage and I had downloaded a mod adding it in, I think after trying it, I'd conclude "Meh. Not that interesting gameplay-wise and doesn't really fit into the rest of the game well." and remove it.

If others agree with me on this, I think it might be worth the time to change.


* – this wouldn't be marginal if lots of that yield were concentrated in that City (e.g., the Capital) – but in that case, you should have a counterspy working there anyway.

 

[Calavente]

I just want to chim in :

if espionnage cannot "attack you", having defensive espionnage is not FUN. (ie : no interest in building "defensive espionnage buildings")
indeed it doesn't help you, it only reduces the ennemy's efficiency.

I have no proposal for precise mechanics but IMO, "purely beneficial" is not the way to go for espionnage.
Indeed, if that were the case, if you have 2 times the investment in espionnage than another guy, it will be better (for you) to have 2 times more spy missions than spending half for countering him and other half to spy in his country.

doing a "purely beneficial" espionnage would be totally un-RL... as currently I think most of the countries "espionnage" spendings are done in counter-espionnage than in foreign operations. In RL, it is beneficial to act in other countries / against other countries, but it is much more important to protect your own country from their spies.


however if ennemy spies in your cities could "drain" a bit of gold or science (there are many economical and scientifical RL sources for this), or hammers (from the city : 5-10% transfer or empire wide (1-2% transfer) per spy), you'll find an interest in defending against spies : not only reducing their efficiency but also protecting yourself.

just like using units you build are not only reducing the army strength of the other civ nor maintening a strength ratio but also countering an invasion or protecting against pillage.

Espionnage is not like opportunities that are more fun is only positive.

Espionnage is a form of modern warfare. It can be james-bond-like espionnage but also economical espionnage (there's always been a lot of that), or there were other formes in renaissance and industrial era.

having a "spy" in your biggest private industries can make them lose markets in foreign countries, making you lose trade income and the foreign country gaining it.
Or a third world BRICs country may "steal" your tech (such as a plane going over their territory) and try to replicate it.

In industrial era, espionnage could be linked to stealing/corrupting/buying the "inventors" of the nearby country (using religious pressure / political sympathy / coercion against family / pure greed : better pay or better research facilities).
it would help mimic how the northern italy, which was a community of small CS, arrived at industrial era roughly at the same time as the World-wide commonwealth.

 

[Stalker0]

While we are on the subject, I just had the greatest use of espionage in a game I've played.

I was playing against Hiawatha on King difficulty, and though I didn't think I was doing that bad in science, techs were taking 20 turns a pop and Mr Iroquis was about 4-5 techs ahead of me.

It started with 1 spy, then 2, and eventually 3. I put spies in all of his major cities, and started sucking him dry.

I don't have an exact count, but I would say 10-12 techs is about right. I literally stopped researching and just let him do all the work.

It was weird, normally the AI counters espionage better than this. While he did put a constabulary to begin countering me he never killed one of my spies and I don't think he had a spy on his capital.

Also normally I'm use to steal rates dropping pretty dramatically after a time, but 10 turns steals were the normal all the way until I had tech parity.

 

[Lissindiel]

Is it possible to give spies ability to assassinate great persons of other nations, that wandered into player's territory? Those Great Prophets are a pain in the back.

 

[Dunkah]

Started doing the spy thng in the game I am in right now vs Washington. Seems to working better than usual.

@Lissindiel: Build an Inquisitor and leave him in one of your cities. When you see the great prophet run him to the city nearest the prophet. He will prevent the prophet from converting your city.