Randall Turner
King
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2011
- Messages
- 679
Well, you could do worse than give the Germans an industrial special ability. My point is that you can't support it with statistics from the post-unification period without acknowledging that the UK and US deserve it more.
NicTeos - First of all, Taegen's post is just incorrect. He's giving incorrect information. The USA's gross national product did indeed exceed that of the rest of the world combined right during the period we're talking about, ie, from Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" indirectly through a US Navy historical website:
from:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
excerpt:
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in December 1941, the sleeping giant was awakened and came looking for trouble. And even though the majority of America's war-making potential was slated for use against Germany (which was by far the most dangerous of the Axis foes, again for reasons of economics), there was still plenty left over for use against Japan. By mid-1942, even before U.S. force of arms was being dramatically felt globally, American factories were nevertheless beginning to make a material effect in the war's progress. The U.S. churned out seemingly endless quantities of equipment and provision which were then funnelled to not only our own forces, but to those of Great Britain and the USSR as well. By 1944, most of the other powers in the war, though still producing furiously, were beginning to max out their economies (i.e. production was stabilizing or plateauing). This resulted from destruction of industrial bases and constriction of resource pools (in the case of Germany and Japan), or through sheer exhaustion of manpower (in the case of Great Britain and, to an extent, the USSR). By contrast, the United States suffered from none of these difficulties, and as a consequence its economy grew at an annual rate of 15% throughout the war years. As scary as it sounds, by the end of the war, the United States was really just beginning to get 'warmed up.' It is perhaps not surprising that in 1945, the U.S. accounted for over 50% of total global GNP.
Note that Taegen's superficial graph cherry-picks GNP, avoiding peak USA production years, and that GNP is a poor representative of industrial power (or at least, very approximate) as it includes irrelevancies such as service industry etc. and doesn't take into account CapU, as mentioned in the "Grim..." site above. (Read it all, it's interesting, and Kennedy's book is a good overview.) It's (GNP) more of a nation's measure of gold-making, actually, than hammer-making potential in Civ V.
Likewise, your post re: exports is only tangentially relevant. Especially for countries like the Soviet Union, which while it had a powerful industrial capability was a bit of a dog vis a vis international markets.
Basically, Uniform Sierra, black humor aside, you got it right. When we think of Germany, we're not scared of raw production. I'm not afraid of them making stuff, I'm afraid of them making stuff and hitting me with it.
The USA will just frickin' bury you under a pile of materiel.
You're right, NicTeos, about the USA and Germany chasing the UK in industrial development. But the time period you pick, while Germany does well economically, the USA does stellar - then keeps it up into the present time period. You can't justify giving Germany a bump w/o addressing the USA.
(And by the by, how can we say Germany is weak w/o noting that the USA might be the most underpowered civ in the game?)
NicTeos - First of all, Taegen's post is just incorrect. He's giving incorrect information. The USA's gross national product did indeed exceed that of the rest of the world combined right during the period we're talking about, ie, from Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" indirectly through a US Navy historical website:
Spoiler :
from:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
excerpt:
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in December 1941, the sleeping giant was awakened and came looking for trouble. And even though the majority of America's war-making potential was slated for use against Germany (which was by far the most dangerous of the Axis foes, again for reasons of economics), there was still plenty left over for use against Japan. By mid-1942, even before U.S. force of arms was being dramatically felt globally, American factories were nevertheless beginning to make a material effect in the war's progress. The U.S. churned out seemingly endless quantities of equipment and provision which were then funnelled to not only our own forces, but to those of Great Britain and the USSR as well. By 1944, most of the other powers in the war, though still producing furiously, were beginning to max out their economies (i.e. production was stabilizing or plateauing). This resulted from destruction of industrial bases and constriction of resource pools (in the case of Germany and Japan), or through sheer exhaustion of manpower (in the case of Great Britain and, to an extent, the USSR). By contrast, the United States suffered from none of these difficulties, and as a consequence its economy grew at an annual rate of 15% throughout the war years. As scary as it sounds, by the end of the war, the United States was really just beginning to get 'warmed up.' It is perhaps not surprising that in 1945, the U.S. accounted for over 50% of total global GNP.
Note that Taegen's superficial graph cherry-picks GNP, avoiding peak USA production years, and that GNP is a poor representative of industrial power (or at least, very approximate) as it includes irrelevancies such as service industry etc. and doesn't take into account CapU, as mentioned in the "Grim..." site above. (Read it all, it's interesting, and Kennedy's book is a good overview.) It's (GNP) more of a nation's measure of gold-making, actually, than hammer-making potential in Civ V.
Likewise, your post re: exports is only tangentially relevant. Especially for countries like the Soviet Union, which while it had a powerful industrial capability was a bit of a dog vis a vis international markets.
Basically, Uniform Sierra, black humor aside, you got it right. When we think of Germany, we're not scared of raw production. I'm not afraid of them making stuff, I'm afraid of them making stuff and hitting me with it.
The USA will just frickin' bury you under a pile of materiel.
You're right, NicTeos, about the USA and Germany chasing the UK in industrial development. But the time period you pick, while Germany does well economically, the USA does stellar - then keeps it up into the present time period. You can't justify giving Germany a bump w/o addressing the USA.
(And by the by, how can we say Germany is weak w/o noting that the USA might be the most underpowered civ in the game?)