Gotm22-Vikings PreGame Discussion

[mad-bax]

The difficulty setting is interesting. IMHO cultural victories are the most difficult to achieve at deity level, and I have never read of a winning 20K deity game, though I'm sure it has been done many times. 20K is possible at Emperor level, but quite difficult. Even DaveMcWs Ottoman game gave him his lowest relative Jason score that I can remember.

The 20K win must be "doable" in crackers estimation for the players in the top half of the results, otherwise it woulod be silly to set as the objective. So how can a game that is harder than Emperor allow that? The most obvious would be to have an very good coastal location for the second city and several huts for the scouts to pop.

To reduce the amount of luck involved, I would guess that we would start on our own island, so we get to pop all the huts ourselves. Since the Collosus is very important to 20K I would also imagine that the Open players will start with Bronze working (the Viking may already, I don't know).

If I decide on (another) 20K then my scout will go to the mountain in the north to look for the sea. I imagine I will settle on the spot and get a settler out ASAP to get my 20K city up and running. Rapid expansion will take a back seat to getting workers out quickly. Both because it is a young world and because joining workers into the 20K city is the quickest way of getting production up fast. Remember on Archipelago we are unlikely to be able to generate leaders before map making so we will have to build the ancient age wonders. The most important of these are Collosus and Oracle, then great Library and maybe Lighthouse depending on topography. Pyramids are too expensive and the benefits less useful on an island map.

So, I would probably aim to build Collosus, Oracle, Lighthouse and Great Library. I would not expect to get Great library, so I would make damn sure to get Monarchy so I can cascade to Hanging Gardens.

The divine wisdom is that building a temple early is crucial. Recent experience leads me to question this. I think I would rather wait for a representative form of government and buy a temple rather than whip it (at a pop cost) which would damage my chances of getting a wonder (the lighthouse probably).

Having said all that, I will probably shoot for a conquest victory this month but I reserve the right to change my mind at any time.

EDIT: Have read the starting bonuses so definitely no Bronze Working. Now I don't know which research path to take. Probably Alphabet to MM, and hope for the Wonder techs from trade and Huts. Tricky though.

 

[Naboo]

I'm sure its coming, but the only add-on link for v1.29 is a Windows executable... Last time I found the answer on the "Mac GOTM" page but since that one may be disbanding soon, I'll ask here - will there be a link for Macs?

Regards

 

[Darkness]

Well, this looks like it's going to be a difficult game. I don't know if I'll be able to get a 20K cultural win on emperor level, but I'll try.
I'll move my scout onto the mountain to the north to try and spot a good place for my second (20K, I hope) city ASAP, to get it up and running ASAP. So my expansion will probably suffer somewhat to get to that goal.

This is an archipelago mnap, so I'll go for mapmapking, I think, as we might be alone on our island....

@Lkendter: What bonus warrior? Did I miss anything?

Finally, I hope I'll be able to finish this game, because I'll have very little time to play this month. I'll be on vacation from the first to the 18th, so I think there'll be some marathon civ-sessions coming for me....

 

[Tech Step]

Well.

This will be my second GOTM game and I have been hanging out for it for over 10 days now (I have been so bored)

My first move will be to settle where I stand (IMHO I think that this is the best thing to do) Worker will go east and scout North -> North West to the mountain.

I have never gone for a 20K victory so any tips would be appreciated. I assume that a 20K victory is when a city gets to 20000 culture points.

good luck peoples (only 4 sleeps to go)

 

[Yndy]

There’s also the other way to get a 20K victory: kill everybody and then wait for the 20K victory. You won’t get the fastest victory but you’re sure to get it.

That's the path I'm going to follow anyway.

 

[flexo]

Just out of curiosity what makes you all think that you are alone on an island (starting landmass) ? I think i'll be better safe then sorry and creat an archer or two to take a quick look around (and if i'm not alone try and do a quick take out attack on another civ).

I'll move my first units up onto the mountains to get a wider view and then i'll decide what to do with my settler. But it looks like an ok starting position even thou it lacks any bonus resources of any kind (as far as I can see in that small picture).

OK so it is 100gp per archer > berserker that is kind of steep, i'd say I really really need Leos.

Since it is island hoppin' galore (probably) the lighthouse might for once be a useful thing to build. I rarely build it unless i am cascaded into it.

 

[Qitai]

Not sure what to do yet. No visible bonus resource, not even in the shadows except maybe NW, NW. But even then, I am not sure if there is anything there. Map position we are 3/4 down the map. This usually means grassland and then ice to the south and plains to the north and maybe desert. That is as much as what I can gather now. Still undecided what style to play for GOTM22. I had been too ambitious for GOTM21 even though I know I don't have much time in July.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

By single city for Tourney does this mean OCC, or just 20K culture in one of your cities?

 

[Dianthus]

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
By single city for Tourney does this mean OCC, or just 20K culture in one of your cities?

Just 20K culture in one of your cities.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Great! Then this is my plan, as posted in the speculation thread:

I will search a little longer to find the VERY BEST location for my second city. My research will go straight for temples, then Literature, which will hopefulley net me the great library. That should get me map making. I will need construction somewhere in the mix for a palace prebuild.

I will keep native workers to a minimum. The viking berserks will raid coastal cities, raze them, and use the slaves. Minimal native workers. As a result, I will play very militaristic, but my culture city will always be working, even prebuilding, to culture improvements.

 

[Dianthus]

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
My research will go straight for temples, then Literature, which will hopefulley net me the great library. That should get me map making.

I'm no expert on The Great Library (I don't think I've ever built it!) but, if I remember correctly, you only get the techs researched by the AI's that you've met. If this map is like GOTM17 then you won't meet the other AI's until you've got Map Making, so The Great Library will be useless (apart from culture) until you research Map Making yourself.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

The main purpose of the GL is culture. with 6 culture to boot, and 12 culture after 1000years, it is one killer wonder! If it were possible to get the GL before 1000BC, it would be amazing! It could make 4000-5000 culture.

Also, even if we are isolated, that will only give it more power. You can keep getting techs after education, as long as you get them on the same turn as education.

 

[scubagtr]

This game will be very difficult to judge what exactly I am going to do. If I was playing my own game and going for a culture type win, I would choose a scientific and religous civ since temples/cath/libs/univ are all cheaper and quicker to build, but now cracker comes and gives use a mil/exp civ. Very sneaky

However, I guess with this civ, one is mining for GLs to build these wonders, hopefully.

Bezerkers are awesome, especially with their amphibious assault qualities. Of course, if Cracker puts in those squids, it will be very deheartening when your ship of 4 Berks go down

I will do as everyone else and place my second city in a good spot for building wonders. Now I just have to figure out what makes a great location great. Are we just looking for as many shields as possible? i.e. many hills and forests?

 

[mad-bax]

IMHO the problem with the GL for 20K is not as stated above. Normally with the GL you would turn off research and just get all your techs for free. This is what I did in the last game. This of course means that other civs are ahead of you in tech, and this means that there is a far greater chance of a wonder cascade. This in turn makes the Hanging Gardens, Great wall, Sistines, Sun Tsus, Leonardo's stretch of the game difficult. With the high upgrade cost of the UU, it would be important to get Leo's (QED).

The GL is important for a 20K as it costs 66 shields per culture point and is therefore cost effective, but personally I would advocate fast research even if you own it, along with careful pre-building so that with a tech lead you can complete a wonder and force the AI to dump large numbers of shields because they have nothing to cascade to.

Tech pace can be reduced later in the game to prevent the AI achieving a space win.

My two cents (worth about one cent at todays exchange rate )

 

[CruddyLeper]

Originally posted by scubagtr
This game will be very difficult to judge what exactly I am going to do.

Same here. I've never won 20K victory at any level, so I'm really not convinced this is a good time to start aiming at it. Depends on terrain really - but given the civ traits, conquest/domination seem the easiest route.

Originally posted by scubagtr

I will do as everyone else and place my second city in a good spot for building wonders. Now I just have to figure out what makes a great location great. Are we just looking for as many shields as possible? i.e. many hills and forests?

I would guess a food bonus or 2 would be a big help as well, to sustain the population to use the shield rich tiles. Also, luxuries - if we have 2 or 3 close by, surely a 20K city is much easier than with only 1 luxury. I understand they grow awfully big while clocking up the shields... and Cracker's words on "trading expeditions" do make me wonder...

 

[scubagtr]

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, since this will be my 1st ever attempt at a 20K, then I might as well make it my 1st Palace jump as well. Build the FP in my 20K city and jump the Palace to another island, assuming these are islands, which I think they are.

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by scubagtr

Now I just have to figure out what makes a great location great. Are we just looking for as many shields as possible? i.e. many hills and forests?

Ideally your culture city would have a coastal location for collosus, lighthouse and Magellans. It would be on a river so you don't have to wate time with an aqueduct, and less importantly you can build Hoovers in it. It would have a food bonus so it can grow quickly. Shields are important, particularly in a coastal city where you might have (typically) only 15 of your 21 tiles capable of shield production. The later wonders are unimportant so max shield production is not a priority IMO. Personally I would concentrate on getting my shield capacity to 20 then 25 then 34 spt ASAP, along with getting the city to size 12 quickly.

Lots of forrest in the radius is not ideal. Although you get 2 spt immediately, because you are primarily building wonders it is likely that the shields for clearance will be wasted unless you are very cute, so the worker turns involved are a waste. Hill are better than mountains but both are only usefull once out of despotism by which time your finish date will be set within around 15 turns.

If there is a food bonus then the city can of course support more forrest etc. and comfortably maintain size 12 in despotism and this will save worker turns.

 

[Moonsinger]

I think a one 20K Cultural city at the Demigod level is very tough. However, as some of you have pointed out, it must be possible because Cracker said so. Therefore, good luck everyone and have fun showing off your empire building skills.

As for me, I will immediately build my first city at the starting location - this one is nonnegotiable. Of course, I will do the 40-turns research as usual.

 

[Dianthus]

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
I've never won 20K victory at any level, so I'm really not convinced this is a good time to start aiming at it.

Come on, where's your sense of adventure . I, too, have never won a 20K culture (won a few 100K Chieftain games by accident when I didn't know what I was doing though ), but will definitely give it a try. From what I can gather, part of this specified victory condition thing for the tourney is to try and get us to attempt new victory conditions, rather than getting bogged down repeating the same old things every month. Sounds good to me, and gives me an excuse later when someone says, "Of course you lost, what did you think you was doing going for 20K culture!" .

 

[scubagtr]

I had a dream that my empire was so dominant that it was a race between my army destoying all the other civs and my culture city racing to 20K to see who finished first.