Government civics: when to toss God King?

[Bartholomew]

Hey all, curious about opinions on the government civics. It seems I wind up kind of "hooked" on the God King, and can never bring myself to pull away until it's truly ruinous to my economy. By the time Aristocracy comes along (not tooo much later than God King of course, but long enough) I've already optimized my improvements and cities, and switching over to Aristocracy and its decreased food from farms kills me. On top of that, the gold bonus in my God King capital often outweighs the boost to my economy gained from Aristocracy.

How do you tell when to switch? How do you prepare for it? Help, I'm tired of being a deity among mortals.

 

[Luckmann]

Depends on, above all else, what civilization you're playing.

 

[Senethro]

As soon as you've researched Code of Laws and can adopt Aristocracy.

If Elves, then sometime about your 5th-7th city, depending on map size.

 

[Luckmann]

As soon as you've researched Code of Laws and can adopt Aristocracy.

If Elves, then sometime about your 5th-7th city, depending on map size.

I'd say that regardless of what civilization you are, you should switch from God King at around your 7th or 8th city, unless you've got a seriously beefed up capital (which I, personally, tend to have).

You shouldn't have so big cities by that time (again, depending on the civilization) that you'll go into starvation when switching to Aristocracy. If you're uncertain, just switch to City States or Aristocracy as soon as you can. It's much better to have a slightly sub-optimal civic (at that time) than to build a cloud castle that will collapse once you change civics - because you're -going- to have to, sooner or later.

 

[Yarnosh]

The obvious way to offset the food loss of Aristocracy is to also go Agrarian. But maybe that is a given. Problem is that Aristocracy kind of forces you to keep using Agrarian. So I usually feel rather "stuck" with Aristocracy. I, personally, don't go aristocracy at all unless I am running a Financial leader. It is easy Commerce from teh beginning. Otherwise I depend on cottages and City States. I'm a fan of City States. The maint. reductions are just too good to pass up. Plus keeping Agrarian isn't important. I have more freedom with that civic category.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Hey all, curious about opinions on the government civics. It seems I wind up kind of "hooked" on the God King, and can never bring myself to pull away until it's truly ruinous to my economy. By the time Aristocracy comes along (not tooo much later than God King of course, but long enough) I've already optimized my improvements and cities, and switching over to Aristocracy and its decreased food from farms kills me. On top of that, the gold bonus in my God King capital often outweighs the boost to my economy gained from Aristocracy.

How do you tell when to switch? How do you prepare for it? Help, I'm tired of being a deity among mortals.

I'm an Aristocratic Elf myself - I make up the food loss with an Aristocracy/Agrarian civic combo. All the cool kids are doing it.

To prepare for the switch from God King, I'd greatly emphasize farms over cottages and have the Agrarian civic waiting in advance. The real question though is why and when to switch.

I switch based on the productivity of my non-capitol cities: I change once they're becoming roughly competitive with the capitol (which is receiving the God King bonus and they aren't). The number of cities and farms is another reason to switch: the extra +2 per farm is highly attractive but I have no set number. I sort of eyeball the nation and if I've few farms or relatively few or smallish cities, then I stay God King. (Waiting 7-8 cities is kind of a long time though, I'd have switched to city-states or aristo before that. I suppose it depends on actually looking at your maintenance costs, productivity in the capitol, et. but that stills seem a little too long for GK)

If you're hanging on to the ruinous point, I'd think it was because your nation was becoming too big to rely on the commerce of one city; I'd switch to City States or Aristocracy immediately, prepared or not. I'm not wedded to Aristocracy either, City States is where I'll go if we continue growing, and ultimately I'll go Ljosalfarian "Guardian of Nature" civic.

Here's a current thread that discusses the God King Civic and it has some interesting calculations.

 

[JFSebastian]

Thats a complicated decision. It depends on too many factors to give simple advice for. First and foremost, it depends on what civic you're switching to. Aristocracy isn't the only viable option out there. Since you mentioned it though, I'll assume we are switching to Aristocracy. In this case, you'll want to count how many farms you have and compare the commerce gains with your wealth loss from switching out of God King. This will depend heavily on where your slider is at as well. You'll probably want to factor in the maintenance changes too. Its not a difficult comparison to draw a judgment call from at this point. Your grassland farms will need to be producing at least 3 food under Aristocracy to make sense in my opinion, unless you happen to have a 5+ food plot in most of your cities.

On the other hand, you'll want to consider the production hit as well. In my opinion, your economy outweighs your production ability unless you happen to be working on something special, like a Wonder.

 

[psychodation]

ok. damn ignorant i happen to be born as, i never ever used specialists in civ. both vanilla and ffh. hm. now entering emporer-level with ffh, i realize it could be quite useful to do so.

now i stumble on this thread, and i realise: never thought about the mechanics of the game. could someone please help me get a list of what costs money, what brings commerce?

afaik:

costs:

maintainance (is there a list of how much all the buildings need to maintain in ffh?)
troops (workers too? is it units in general, or...? and where do i see how much a unit costs per turn?)

else?

:

tiles (and improvements)
specialists
trade...? how is this defined? the great lighthouse for instance: 2 more in very costal city. does that mean two more ?

else?


am playing since civ I and never got the idea to think about the game. now i get ffh and all sorts of questions arise. take it as a compliment. always got bored bevore i reached a level which made it necessary to think...

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I keep God king for a long time and I rarely ever switch to anything else, especially if I am at war.
Sometimes I adopt Theocracy, as soon as it appears, especially if I play the Bannor or intend to go with Order for sometime.
The only other civic I trade God King for is Republic.
However, if I am to go to war anytime soon, or someone declares war at me, I switch to either God King or Theocracy, in addition to the other civic changes((Military State, Conquest etc).
When playing the Amurites, however, I tend to like going with their theme, by chosing the relevant civics, except for aristocracy. Although it suits them better, I still prefer God King, unless I am into financial problems, when, unwillingly, I go for the extra gold from aristocracy, if this is my only option...

 

[Jet]

@Bartholomew: if you're trying to see whether it's better to switch at the current turn in an existing game, can't you just do the arithmetic? I don't understand what you're asking.

@psychodation:
* your costs are shown in F2. Buildings cost nothing. Units, you get some free based on your population and more free if you run military state. After that it's 1 per unit [it might be different at map sizes / speeds other than standard/normal]. Units outside your borders (after the first few, which are free) have an extra cost. Each city has a cost based on distance to the closest palace (main palace, summer, winter) and the total number of cities, which can be reduced by city states, aristocracy, courthouse, basilica, law mana. Civics have a cost, reduced if you're Organized. All costs are multiplied by inflation, which increases over time. F2 shows the extra cost from inflation.
* the in each city is converted to a combination of , , and depending on the position of the sliders.
* many tiles give . Use Ctrl-Y to see exactly.
* no specialist in FFH or the unmodded game give but some give .
* the great lighthouse gives extra trade routes. Trade routes are shown in the city screen. Each trade route gives the city some .

 

[psychodation]

F2? trade advisor? never locked him up.... guess i will start playing more sophisticated...

oh my. could have looked there on my own...

 

[bluedevil99]

7-8 cities? Wow, either people are staying in GK waaaay longer than I am, or I'm just expanding really, really slowly!

I usually run GK long enough to get the Great Library up in the capital. By that time CoL is in and I'm switching to Aristocracy. From there it's grab some military unit techs and then onto Arcane Lore for Scholarship. Aristocracy + Scholarship + Agrarianism + Great Library = win. Staying in GK for too long usually means I end up relying on cottages for research, and that's something I've really tried to get away from in FfH.

 

[Yarnosh]

I keep God king for a long time and I rarely ever switch to anything else, especially if I am at war.

That's crazy! You must run really small empires. Anything larger than 6 or so cities is a huge burden without Aristocracy or City States. And you can forget about conquest. If I can't keep my research rate at 80% or above, I consider that a failing economy.

 

[Yarnosh]

7-8 cities? Wow, either people are staying in GK waaaay longer than I am, or I'm just expanding really, really slowly!

If you are aggressive, you can get there. I switch from GK long before that. Though I haven't done the math. Perhaps I underestimate GK.

My strategy is probably overly simple. For the most part I just look at my research rate. Whatever civic allows the highest research rate, that's what I'll use. I'm obsessed with maintaining a tech lead.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

That's crazy! You must run really small empires. Anything larger than 6 or so cities is a huge burden without Aristocracy or City States. And you can forget about conquest. If I can't keep my research rate at 80% or above, I consider that a failing economy.

It is interesting that I can get away with 18 cities and still run God King! Thank the gods that there are the Summer and Winter Palaces.

Now, did I forget courthouses also?...Nevermind

EDIT: I do not see how 80% research can help you when you need loads of troops to defend/counterattack against an opponent when at war...

 

[Luckmann]

7-8 cities? Wow, either people are staying in GK waaaay longer than I am, or I'm just expanding really, really slowly!
[...]

I should probably have worded what I said better. I meant that by your 7th or 8th city, you should have changed from God King already. So if you haven't changed by 7th/8th, you definately should.

This is all my personal preference, of course. I'm not saying that it's the ultimate choice, since there's a bunch of different things to consider. Again, most importantly, the state of your cities and what civilization you are.

 

[xalien]

GK can be good later in the game if you move your capital into the city with the big shrine (like Nox Noctis because CoE is very easy to spread using birds). Then the 50% gold bonus can easily make up for increased maintenance. In my last game I was lucky at founding CoE in the same city as FoL, at the end I was getting ~200 gold from them.

 

[JonathanStrange]

So GK can be good for larger empires spanning continents and are not just for scary religious megalomaniacs with delusions of grandeur? Hey, I may never switch!!



Nah, just kidding: I'm still goin for city states or aristocracy and not worry about some special cases.

 

[Luckmann]

GK can be good later in the game if you move your capital into the city with the big shrine (like Nox Noctis because CoE is very easy to spread using birds). Then the 50% gold bonus can easily make up for increased maintenance. In my last game I was lucky at founding CoE in the same city as FoL, at the end I was getting ~200 gold from them.

That's an awesome suggestion, actually, since I usually end up with multiple religions founded rather early, increasing the chance of getting multiple in a single city.

 

[PekkaR]

The obvious way to offset the food loss of Aristocracy is to also go Agrarian. But maybe that is a given. Problem is that Aristocracy kind of forces you to keep using Agrarian. So I usually feel rather "stuck" with Aristocracy. I, personally, don't go aristocracy at all unless I am running a Financial leader. It is easy Commerce from teh beginning. Otherwise I depend on cottages and City States. I'm a fan of City States. The maint. reductions are just too good to pass up. Plus keeping Agrarian isn't important. I have more freedom with that civic category.

The turn when you finish researching Sanitation (farms +1) is an excellent time to adopt Aristocracy, or to drop Agrarianism if you felt stuck with it due to Aristocracy.