Great People improvements still worthless

[Pep]

Settling a great person gets less powerful as the ages progress and in the long run the math stacks against them eg: great merchant sent to a city state gives 650 + friendship that would have cost you 250 gold thats 225 turns worth of gold if they were settled to get the investment back!

Why not do what they do with city state bonus over the era's and increase the amount the improvement gives you when you enter a new age. I don't wanna get into the exact math but if someone else has a suggestion on exact era buffs let me know.

I mean city state bonus increases in eras, and we no longer have cottage tiles like in Civ 4 so there is a precedence for it.

What does everyone think?

xx

I agree with you. For example, I would buff manufactories so that they get +1 hammer with renaissance and another +1 with industrial. With only +4 production as they are now, they provide the same yields in a grassland tile as a fully developed iron mine (with the technology that gives them +1 production) in the same tile.

Also, I think maybe the landmark is a bit overpowered for ancient eras. Perhaps it should start with +4 culture and then be buffed until +6.

 

[cccv]

He was simply pointing out that NC-first isn't the only viable or even necessarily the best option. Straight honor/warmonger with possible HE thrown in there is quite often the best approach. All the beefed up NC has done is to give peaceful solutions a chance to be effective as well.

I don't believe that's what he was saying. It looks like he was saying that honor is not the best thing to do, so even though it's possible to win that way it doesn't mean it's the best strategy. This analogy was in response to what I said, the difference being is that in his example he's claiming my statement was the same as saying "I /can/ win doing this, therefore it's good," whereas what I actually said was "I can't win if I /don't/ do this," which is a pretty big difference. Maybe I'm misreading something somewhere, but that's what it looks like. Also, he said nothing about the NC, I'm not sure where you saw that.

Anyway, my previous strategy was to go for a GS (or, if the timing was right, GE to hammer out ivory tower so I'd get a GS plus a GS-point building). This did not result in me winning games. Settling the GE does. A single tech just doesn't do as much for me as the ability to produce units quickly enough that it actually even seems worth it to build them (not to mention that city is in a good position to build a wonder too if I feel so inclined). The conquering I can do with that army also contributes to gold and science. Yeah I'm sure it might not be the best choice 100% of the time, but so far I haven't found a better use for the meritocracy GP that will actually allow me to win.

 

[lordsurya08]

Don't wait for Firaxis, just buff them yourselves. It's a two-minute-job to go into the XMLs and increase the values as you like. For more details PM me.

I personally buffed academy to +9 science and customs house to +10 gold.

 

[SirSaab]

I don't believe that's what he was saying. It looks like he was saying that honor is not the best thing to do, so even though it's possible to win that way it doesn't mean it's the best strategy. This analogy was in response to what I said, the difference being is that in his example he's claiming my statement was the same as saying "I /can/ win doing this, therefore it's good," whereas what I actually said was "I can't win if I /don't/ do this," which is a pretty big difference. Maybe I'm misreading something somewhere, but that's what it looks like. Also, he said nothing about the NC, I'm not sure where you saw that.

Anyway, my previous strategy was to go for a GS (or, if the timing was right, GE to hammer out ivory tower so I'd get a GS plus a GS-point building). This did not result in me winning games. Settling the GE does. A single tech just doesn't do as much for me as the ability to produce units quickly enough that it actually even seems worth it to build them (not to mention that city is in a good position to build a wonder too if I feel so inclined). The conquering I can do with that army also contributes to gold and science. Yeah I'm sure it might not be the best choice 100% of the time, but so far I haven't found a better use for the meritocracy GP that will actually allow me to win.

I tried this strategy after reading your post, and have to say, I'm a believer. I've always used my GE's to pop wonders, but I followed the meritocracy path and settled a GE on a flood plain, and man... It's truly a boon to production, and I never even CONSIDERED doing this.

IDK how it would work out, but I'm considering using ALL GE's in this fasion in the future (with exceptions for certain must have wonders like Porcelin Tower or Himjei Castle). I also want to try it with the National College start and see how it works out. Then you get the production AND the research. Yowza...

 

[Phyrio]

A settled great person is only as good as the difference between its tile and a regular tile. So while the merchant makes a 4 commerce tile its really only 3 commerce (2 post economics) because you could have built a trading post there instead. Also, when I do settle (which is rare) I'm terrified that I'm going to settle on a late game strategic resource and end up destroying my GP =( Which is why I usually either golden age or use the special ability.

 

[Zaimejs]

They should make the great person improvements much more powerful... especially the merchant. Build some kind of building like a Wal-Mart or something. Stock exchange. Some tourist attraction.

 

[Save_Ferris]

Special Improvement:
Tourist Trap
+10 Gold
-5 Culture
-5 Happiness

 

[GenjiKhan]

They should make the great person improvements much more powerful... especially the merchant. Build some kind of building like a Wal-Mart or something. Stock exchange. Some tourist attraction.

Wal Mart found in ancient ages by Marco Polo wouldn't be good. we already have stock exchange for building and tourism have become common only in the last two centurys. but I agree that the bonus of GP Improvements should be better. And I'd like to see a bonus to Citadels too.

 

[CYZ]

I tried this strategy after reading your post, and have to say, I'm a believer. I've always used my GE's to pop wonders, but I followed the meritocracy path and settled a GE on a flood plain, and man... It's truly a boon to production, and I never even CONSIDERED doing this.

IDK how it would work out, but I'm considering using ALL GE's in this fasion in the future (with exceptions for certain must have wonders like Porcelin Tower or Himjei Castle). I also want to try it with the National College start and see how it works out. Then you get the production AND the research. Yowza...

I'd suggest you do this:

Play as babylon if you have the DLC.

Research for Writing and settle the great scientist you get.
Build for National college first. Science is amazing now as your academy gets +50%!
Don't forget to build a monument before the NC, buy it otherwise. Use your policies to go for meritocracy asap. Settle the GE you get.

You will now have an immmense tech lead + you have the production to actually keep up with producing the buildings you're unlocking via tech. This is an amazingly strong OCC strat although it works well in other situations as well.

You will certainly get more scientists and possibly engineers later on. Be wary, after the early game settling great people is not as powerfull anymore. However, a supercity with many settled great people of different types is still very strong but be carefull not to lose too much on food.

I've done this a few times and I have an easy time, even when cranking up difficulty.

 

[Zaimejs]

Wal-mart was tongue in cheek. I think that tourist traps (Disney World) would increase cultural output (sad as that is).

I miss cottages.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I definitely think the best suggestion would be era boosts.
Give all of them a +1 per era past Classical (+1 Mideval, +2 Renaissance, etc.)

Artists and Merchants special abilities also need a boost

 

[bcaiko]

I definitely think the best suggestion would be era boosts.
Give all of them a +1 per era past Classical (+1 Mideval, +2 Renaissance, etc.)

Artists and Merchants special abilities also need a boost

Man, you're insane if you think the Merchant's special ability is bad. Take him into a nearby city-state, and he earns you more than 500 gold, AND increases your friendship level with the City-State (worth at least another 250 gold). That's a lot of benefit from just one short trip.

Moderator Action: "You're insane" isn't the best way of putting things. Please rephrase in future.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Man, you're insane if you think the Merchant's special ability is bad. Take him into a nearby city-state, and he earns you more than 500 gold, AND increases your friendship level with the City-State (worth at least another 250 gold). That's a lot of benefit from just one short trip.

Compared to the Scientist?

The fact that outside of culture games, the only Great Persons considered worth going for are Scientists and Engineers is significant.

The Merchant should probably give an Influence similar to ~500-1000 gold equivalent, rather than ~200

 

[MadDjinn]

Compared to the Scientist?

The fact that outside of culture games, the only Great Persons considered worth going for are Scientists and Engineers is significant.

The Merchant should probably give an Influence similar to ~500-1000 gold equivalent, rather than ~200

500 g == 2 techs via RA up to industrial. So, yes worth using that way. And free influence if going patronage/scholasticism can be very useful.

 

[ColinTH]

Also, when I do settle (which is rare) I'm terrified that I'm going to settle on a late game strategic resource and end up destroying my GP

Very frustrating when it happens.

MadDjinn = I could see someone taking a GM from Meritocracy if they have met a lot of civs already and can drop it for $$ with a CS near them so that you can spam 200g RAs early. (barb camp realted/stolen worker CS is best if you can then get the rest of the free influence as well to become allies) It's one of the most powerful reasons to do it before anyone hits medieval. (it's like getting a free RA for every 4 RAs which == 1 free tech from a GS)

So simple and so good (I am simple, so why didn't I think of it)!

 

[_hero_]

I think they need to just add great person points on top of their current bonuses. I feel like +2 GPP for each turn the tile is worked is fair. That may be a bit IMBa though, especially for Babylon.

 

[Kwik E Mart]

why not just add the settled GP bonus to the base levels of the city instead of bumping up a tile? do away with the "variance" or "delta" argument altogether...something that makes the settled GS even more of a bad idea is that you could lose one or two food depending on where he settles...at one beaker per population point (not including bonuses for NC, Unitversity, etc) you may be getting less for the academy than originally thought...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A settled great person is only as good as the difference between its tile and a regular tile. So while the merchant makes a 4 commerce tile its really only 3 commerce (2 post economics) because you could have built a trading post there instead. Also, when I do settle (which is rare) I'm terrified that I'm going to settle on a late game strategic resource and end up destroying my GP =( Which is why I usually either golden age or use the special ability.

Which is why all GP improvements should connect up the resource as well.

and Era boosts would solve the delta problem
Ancient: +1 v. +4 (3)
Classical: +1 v. +5 (4)
Mideval: +1 v. +6 (5)
Renaissance: +2 v. +7 (5)
Industrial: +2 v. +8 (6)
Modern: +2 v. +9 (7)
Future: +2 v. +10 (8)

 

[CYZ]

I think having a GP improvement worked should increase speed of creating new GP with 10 or 15%. This way, their bonus is much nicer for larger cities in later eras, which is really where they suck now.

 

[M_Sparkle]

A settled great person is only as good as the difference between its tile and a regular tile. So while the merchant makes a 4 commerce tile its really only 3 commerce (2 post economics) because you could have built a trading post there instead. Also, when I do settle (which is rare) I'm terrified that I'm going to settle on a late game strategic resource and end up destroying my GP =( Which is why I usually either golden age or use the special ability.

I've done this so many times, on OCC I sometimes end up covering a useless looking tile with one of the great people and 2 techs later its like damn it time to plough up my manufactory lol grrr