Gripes with Great People

[GeneralZIft]

Good evening great gurus of Civ forums!

Here are my gripes with Great people in Civ6: They are too unique. I understand that this change was supposed to pay homage to the real person that it is based off.
But, these characters very often come with abilities that over-centralised, too powerful or not at all useful, depending on your situation.

I'm tired of playing the game and coming up with these useless people. Why is my great admiral, which I don't need at all, only expendable at a City state With a water tile that I can access? For the sake of some envoys.

What.

Why do some great people carry crazy bonuses for your City or Empire, and some carry bonuses I'll never need or use?
Why would I want extra range on my Entertainment complexes?

Now all that aside, all I'm saying is this. Great People are great. But, it hinders the Pacing of the game, for me to have to check each single Person that I recruit. And have to decide whether or not I recruit or skip.

This is one thing they really don't need to change. Just have them born into existence and have a basic ability (or Select an ability, like a Promotion), and some type of retirement and call it a day.
Maybe give them unique artwork instead of headaches.

I think the same about City State Bonuses but to a lesser extent - just that it's quite hard to balance them and the one that ends up the best becomes a "meta" choice.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd much rather them keep their uniqueness. To me it's much more interesting than having the same bonuses every time. The good news is that you can pass on a Great Person if you don't need the ability and wait for the next one.

That being said, I wouldn't mind if some of the Great people have a choice, such as the Great Merchants when playing with the corporations mode, to either spend to create a corporation or use their regular bonus. I'd love for the Great Prophets to have their own bonuses, along with founding a religion. Great Musicians could also take the roll of Rock Bands performing in Theater Squares along with them each creating a Great Work of Music.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'd much rather them keep their uniqueness. To me it's much more interesting than having the same bonuses every time. The good news is that you can pass on a Great Person if you don't need the ability and wait for the next one.

That being said, I wouldn't mind if some of the Great people have a choice, such as the Great Merchants when playing with the corporations mode, to either spend to create a corporation or use their regular bonus. I'd love for the Great Prophets to have their own bonuses, along with founding a religion. Great Musicians could also take the roll of Rock Bands performing in Theater Squares along with them each creating a Great Work of Music.

This.
If you delve into them, almost every Great Person in the game or out of it has more than one thing they could be considered for. Quick Examples:
Enheduanna - Great Writer, also Great Prophet
Pythagoreas - Great Scientist, also Great Prophet
Leonardo da Vinci - Great Artist, also Great Engineer
Marquis de Vauban - Great General, also Great Engineer
Alfred Nobel - Great Scientist, also Great Merchant
Oscar Wilde AND Samuel Clemens, both Great Writers, also Great Entertainers
Walt Disney - Great Entertainer, also Great Merchant

Do there's a potential for making a great many of the Great People the subject of a choice by the gamer as to what kind and type of benefit they get from them.
Another possibility, keeping each Great Person in a single category, would be to give each of them a 'standard' bonus based on type (Engineer, Scientist, etc) and a Special Bonus specific to the person. This, of course, would not work for Great Writers, Great Artists or Great Musicians, who are all associated with their specific Great Works, but it would give some flexibility in how Engineers, Scientists, and possibly even Prophets are used (many of the Persons identified as Great Prophets also left behind significant works of literature, for instance)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Another possibility, keeping each Great Person in a single category, would be to give each of them a 'standard' bonus based on type (Engineer, Scientist, etc) and a Special Bonus specific to the person. This, of course, would not work for Great Writers, Great Artists or Great Musicians, who are all associated with their specific Great Works, but it would give some flexibility in how Engineers, Scientists, and possibly even Prophets are used (many of the Persons identified as Great Prophets also left behind significant works of literature, for instance)

For both Great Writers and Great Musicians, I see their specific Great Works as the special bonus. The standard bonus could be them traveling to different Theater Squares for a poetry/theater performance, for writers, or a concert tour for Musicians.
Not sure about Great Artists.

 

[vorlon_mi]

While I do like having the people be named -- in contrast to nameless Great People in Civ4 -- my issue centers on Great Generals or Great Admirals.
While I'm at war, or preparing for war, I really like the passive combat bonus that a GG or GA gives to the troops. Perhaps my warfighting technique needs work, but I never seem to find a reason where their *retirement* bonus outweighs the bonus for having them stay deployed. My GG and GA never retire, LOL.

@Alexander's Hetaroi I have not often declined to recruit a Great Person. Do you not lose your place in line for the next GS, GM, or GE? Or do the great person points stay "in the bank"? To be honest, many times I need the era score so recruiting a sub-optimal Great Person now is more valuable than recruiting an optimal GP ten turns from now, and missing the era threshold.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

While I'm at war, or preparing for war, I really like the passive combat bonus that a GG or GA gives to the troops. Perhaps my warfighting technique needs work, but I never seem to find a reason where their *retirement* bonus outweighs the bonus for having them stay deployed. My GG and GA never retire, LOL.

The passive combat bonuses only apply for two eras. So, when those eras have passed that's when you use their retirement bonuses. There's no need keeping Hannibal past the Medieval Era because if you look he won't be giving you any bonuses.

@Alexander's Hetaroi I have not often declined to recruit a Great Person. Do you not lose your place in line for the next GS, GM, or GE? Or do the great person points stay "in the bank"? To be honest, many times I need the era score so recruiting a sub-optimal Great Person now is more valuable than recruiting an optimal GP ten turns from now, and missing the era threshold.

Yes, your points that you accumulate stay and you would more than likely be able to recruit the next one.

 

[GeneralZIft]

I'm not against obviously the categories, I am just opposed to every single person having a unique ability, just because sometimes it's useless and sometimes it's overpowered, and that to me creates a lot of unnecessary variation.

If I miss the Great Scientist who launches a rocket instantly, I'll be far behind the person who did get it (in theory)

I'm saying, at least for Civ6, they're already asking for a lot from your "focus" during each turn, with the district planning, city spamming, eurkeas, inspirations, city state quests, era score - just so much busywork in terms of game design.

Although I'm aware that this is the minority opinion

 

[AffineConstant]

I do love the uniqueness, but some of them are definitely badly designed. I "love" watching as both me and the AI (I use mods so I guess the mods change this up) just look at a useless Great Person for centuries on end without the game ever moving past them. I also miss the "Einstein was born in BCE 200 in Mesopotamia..." vibe.

Maybe if they got rid of the "era" specificity and just designed them to be a bit more generic and useful across the board, without losing at least the idea of uniqueness. EG Albert Einstein produces a science and minor cultural bonus (he was a celebrity after all) for 10 turns after being activated, while Ettore Majorana just dumps all the science at once (as he vanished from the face of earth, possibly dying, while fleeing Italy before WW2 started)

 

[dagriggstar]

I'm using a great person notification mod so I'm only checking whenever a great person is recruited (thus changing the pool).

It's definitely a balance issue, there's basically no circumstance Ibn Khaldun is useful (the maths is something like 50 science for 1 extra science in an ecstatic city).

One thing I managed to mod and wish they thought of was I've added a medieval great scientist that gives you a 1 turn burst of science, but has to be activated at a foreign holy site and that holy site gains science from its adjacency for the rest of the game. So you can help an ally or use in a city you're about to take from an opponent. I feel like as 'great people' they should have more interaction with other empires.

 

[GeneralZIft]

I do love the uniqueness, but some of them are definitely badly designed. I "love" watching as both me and the AI (I use mods so I guess the mods change this up) just look at a useless Great Person for centuries on end without the game ever moving past them. I also miss the "Einstein was born in BCE 200 in Mesopotamia..." vibe.

Maybe if they got rid of the "era" specificity and just designed them to be a bit more generic and useful across the board, without losing at least the idea of uniqueness. EG Albert Einstein produces a science and minor cultural bonus (he was a celebrity after all) for 10 turns after being activated, while Ettore Majorana just dumps all the science at once (as he vanished from the face of earth, possibly dying, while fleeing Italy before WW2 started)

Oh yea a very annoying problem is how is each Great Person is specific to an era. So once my military has sufficiently upgraded, I need to remember to get rid of my obsolete Great General because he magically stops working now.

Or if you're ahead of the great people tree, you'll occasionally get people with bonuses you literally cannot use it (eg. A Power bonus when no one on earth has Power)

 

[Ordnael]

I think I understand the gripe @GeneralZIft has with GP, but I never though about it that way, the AI plays so dumb anyway so I let them have those specially good bonus with a randomly really good GP.

That being said, I do check from time to time GP progression, but I only bother following great scientist and great merchants, specially great merchants that bring unique luxuries. Otherwise I just try to occasionally nab (buy) one or other vital GP like the last prophet or some artist it I am trying for a late time CV. If fail at depriving the AI of that particular GP I just try not to feel to bad about it as I mostly play emperor nowadays so I am allowed to commit mistakes (several of them) or not enough attention to micromanagement and still win.

Admirals and Generals I just don't look at them at all, even if am being aggressive, they pop out and I just spend them, very rarely I commit them to a unit for a long time.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I'm not against obviously the categories, I am just opposed to every single person having a unique ability, just because sometimes it's useless and sometimes it's overpowered, and that to me creates a lot of unnecessary variation.

If I miss the Great Scientist who launches a rocket instantly, I'll be far behind the person who did get it (in theory)

I'm saying, at least for Civ6, they're already asking for a lot from your "focus" during each turn, with the district planning, city spamming, eurkeas, inspirations, city state quests, era score - just so much busywork in terms of game design.

Although I'm aware that this is the minority opinion

I just wish that I could *capture* wandering GP that the AI have recruited. When my forces are crashing through the last few cities of an AI, I will see unescorted GP wandering around. If I move a unit onto them, they die. Why can't I pick up a Great Merchant or Great Engineer without destroying them? For the sake of roleplaying, I could understand that an AI GG or GA might not want to serve the "enemy", but what about civilian Great People? A Great Artist, for example?

The irony of seeing a GP that I wanted, but the AI sniped away, yet I cannot get it. Just more busywork, I guess.

 

[pokiehl]

I disagree with this post. I quite like the addition of unique abilities for Great People and city-states. “I don’t feel like keeping track of this stuff” is criticism I can’t relate to.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

This is a feature which is overdone in the Civ games. But I say that of a lot of Civ 6 features.

 

[civac]

You could give them generic type abilities with specific spin on top or a specific alternate ability.

 

[pokiehl]

You could give them generic type abilities with specific spin on top or a specific alternate ability.

How would this be any different? The complaint is that unique abilities are unbalanced or require too much consideration. This arguably leads to even more consideration, since now you need to think about the “generic” ability vs the alternative.

 

[Naokaukodem]

I'm not against obviously the categories, I am just opposed to every single person having a unique ability, just because sometimes it's useless and sometimes it's overpowered, and that to me creates a lot of unnecessary variation.

If I miss the Great Scientist who launches a rocket instantly, I'll be far behind the person who did get it (in theory)

I'm saying, at least for Civ6, they're already asking for a lot from your "focus" during each turn, with the district planning, city spamming, eurkeas, inspirations, city state quests, era score - just so much busywork in terms of game design.

Although I'm aware that this is the minority opinion

Yeah Civ6 is the most complicated iteration in the series up to date, IMHO. I don't know what people complain about when they say "It's too easy past a certain threshold, I know I've won and it's just boring". This never happened to me on Deity, always has to race to the ship late. (and, compared to YouTuber Marbozir, I'm even the other way around : I quit games because I feel I can't beat them, I often didn't give high value of the skin of Marbozir, but he actually nearly always succeeded ! (that epic spaceport pillaging with spies when he picked Greece ><;; ))

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Here is what I believe they can all do:
Great Generals and Great Admirals: Same as Civ 6 where each one has a passive bonus (makes sense that they would need to stay for combat/exploration) and a specific bonus based off of what they did.
Great Scientists and Great Engineers: Produce a new type of Great Work (Great Invention?) or have specific bonuses.
Great Merchants: Same as Civ 6 where each has their own unique bonus, plus have the chance to found a corporation.
Great Prophet: Be able to found a religion and each have their own specific bonus.
Great Writer and Musician: Produce unique Great Works and travel to Theater Squares performing and producing culture.
Great Artist: Same as right now

 

[AffineConstant]

I just wish that I could *capture* wandering GP that the AI have recruited. When my forces are crashing through the last few cities of an AI, I will see unescorted GP wandering around. If I move a unit onto them, they die. Why can't I pick up a Great Merchant or Great Engineer without destroying them? For the sake of roleplaying, I could understand that an AI GG or GA might not want to serve the "enemy", but what about civilian Great People? A Great Artist, for example?

The irony of seeing a GP that I wanted, but the AI sniped away, yet I cannot get it. Just more busywork, I guess.

Hey it worked for the US and USSR after WW2, definitely should be a mechanic

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

Now all that aside, all I'm saying is this. Great People are great. But, it hinders the Pacing of the game, for me to have to check each single Person that I recruit. And have to decide whether or not I recruit or skip.

I would not mind being able to create a list of GP that the UI reminds me of when one becomes available.

Great Generals and Great Admirals should have a maintenance cost. I would go so far as to say Great Generals should get a mauls when retiring. Loss of loyalty, gold, production, or combat strength for X turns.