Maybe it should also cost an Oil or two?missiles are bad and they should feel bad. The word literally means projectile. We have those in the game, they're called ranged attacks.
This is what I would do with Missiles: Remove them entirely and use their art asset husks as animations for an improved city attack (if possible).
Remove all missile units
New Building: Missile Silo
Available at Rocketry
Requires Arsenal
2250
10
+1 City Attack Range
+15% city attack damage
Changes city bombardment animation to the guided missile
Move Military Base to Atomic Theory
There, now you have guided missiles that people actually will use. They're a late game bonus that makes city strikes hit up to 5 away with red fort.
Guided (Rocket) Missiles: A new paradigm
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
Perfectmissiles are bad and they should feel bad. The word literally means projectile. We have those in the game, they're called ranged attacks.
This is what I would do with Missiles: Remove them entirely and use their art asset husks as animations for an improved city attack (if possible).
Remove all missile units
New Building: Missile Silo
Available at Rocketry
Requires Arsenal
2250
10
+1 City Attack Range
+15% city attack damage
Changes city bombardment animation to the guided missile
Move Military Base to Atomic Theory
There, now you have guided missiles that people actually will use. They're a late game bonus that makes city strikes hit up to 5 away with red fort.
Seconding missiles suck due to redundant mechanics and will always be too many clicks
pineappledan
Deity
Sure.
Could also move back to Advanced Ballistics in info era, if people think giving another +1 range in atomic comes too soon after Arsenal. In that case though I think it would also need to do more. Like give the city attack splash damage or something.
usadefcon1
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2016
- Messages
- 520
Could make Air units cost Supply but not Missile units.
When Supply gets nerfed it could fill a gap.
When Supply gets nerfed it could fill a gap.
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N.Core
1st Class of Neoa
I would rather want missile units that can be used multiple times until they get depleted. So a single Guided Missile can be used 3 times by a city or ships that can carry them, but it can only launch one Guided Missile per city/ship.
It feels like wasting so much turn to just build a single missile only to waste it in one hit.
Using missiles is actually quite fun during naval warfare since you can use a single ship to attack multiple times in a turn. But one of the downsides with the current method is that once you run out of missiles, you have to restock those from nearby cities. Not to mention you have to micromanage those missiles which is annoying.
I'm totally against removing stuff/assets that are already in the game. Such an uninspired game design to remove them.
AI can already use them, why all of the sudden we want to remove it from the game?
It feels like wasting so much turn to just build a single missile only to waste it in one hit.
Using missiles is actually quite fun during naval warfare since you can use a single ship to attack multiple times in a turn. But one of the downsides with the current method is that once you run out of missiles, you have to restock those from nearby cities. Not to mention you have to micromanage those missiles which is annoying.
I'm totally against removing stuff/assets that are already in the game. Such an uninspired game design to remove them.
AI can already use them, why all of the sudden we want to remove it from the game?
pineappledan
Deity
In the air unit thread, I essentially suggest this. My solution is to make strategic bombers fill a niche similar to current missiles as very delicate, but still reusable 3rd air line with large bonuses to cities.
It was uninspired game design in the first place to make units that do the exact same thing as another unit, but less efficiently and worse.
It would be nice for cities to get +1 range a little after artillery (to give artillery a chance to shine)
Out ranging cities with arty is really boring end game, it makes sieges go from "challenging thoughtful endeavors" to "click and wait for inevitable victory"
How are re-usable missiles different from airplanes? Basically identical niche except one needs to stop attack to heal and one needs to stop attacking to be built+moved again
pineappledan
Deity
Another thought: what if the missile silo gave +1 base range (total of 4), but gave it an additional +2 (total of 6, 7 with red Fort ) when working the defense process?
Now you still have to “build” missiles, but your guaranteed they always take 1 turn and you can really up city damage output without it being “on” all the time.
Now you still have to “build” missiles, but your guaranteed they always take 1 turn and you can really up city damage output without it being “on” all the time.
Sometimes it's better to remove sth boring/badly designed to reduce the bloat.
"Less is More"
- Stalker007
Tekamthi
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2016
- Messages
- 1,717
... Or remove them entirely. I only accept deletion if AI can't manage... Not the case here
Would attacking with the city somehow lock you into "finishing" the turn with the process? Or is more like "if you were working this process last turn..."?
I like the idea on the surface, just wondering about implementation.
Moving the Rocket Missile to a modified animation isn't so bad, but I still think having a mini-nuke before Atomic Bombs that doesn't carry the fallout or diplomacy penalties is interesting. But looking at the tech tree... it would be really hard to fit, unless it came out at Ballistics and not Rocketry.
pineappledan
Deity
I'm pretty sure there is an increase in RCS of city strikes that happens with the defense process, but it is only applied after you have worked it for 1 turn. I would attach the range bonus to the same principle.
N.Core
1st Class of Neoa
It can only be carried by Carriers or Cities, while missiles can be carried by late naval units. The neat thing about missiles is that they're mobile and cheap and they should be designed that way instead of making other unit lines similar to it.
VP made them worse. It was a good unit when it was powerful in vanilla. You want to remove it just because the VP made them look bad.
For me, the more variety, the better. Especially since the AI can already use it.
If you want to remove stuff that AI can't use or is hard to utilize, sure I'll accept it. But AI can use missiles just fine since vanilla.
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N.Core
1st Class of Neoa
It can be placed in other units that are mobiles and also don't compete with planes when it comes to storing it (unless you place them in cities).
Most of these suggestions tell me that these people rarely play on a map where naval warfare is important and fun, so they don't deem mobile units such as missiles as important.
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Rekk
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
- Messages
- 2,614
After ships, the most common launching device of these kinds of missiles are wheel/tread-based launching systems, analogous to Civ-V's rocket artillery. I would suggest that these units also be allowed to carry at least 1 missile.
From what I can tell, missile silos are reserved for ICBMs (housing nukes).
pineappledan
Deity
What is going on with your formatting? The first 2 letters in every word being bolder is really distracting.
I still contend reusable rockets are distinct from airplanes in that they have stronger windows of damage (and of course there's nuance with interception/promotions/etc.).
Why I think this is good design:
You have a "baseline" kind of combat where units are activated every turn, and you spend your time trying to win an attrition battle, usually breaking through with high-mobility units like tanks. This is present throughout the game.
Once rockets come on the scene, you gain the ability to compress several turns of attrition into one burst. This means you have a new tool for breaking a line, and by extension breaking a stalemate. Combat is more dynamic with longer stretches between these kinds of attacks. (Higher highs makes for more memorable fights.)
Limiting the precision tools to the same grinding-every-turn gameplay contributes to late-game war fatigue. I do agree that rockets as cheap throw-away units is the wrong overall approach --with that kind of design it's just a glorified attack animation, and resolving it as such doesn't strike me as losing much.
Why I think this is good design:
You have a "baseline" kind of combat where units are activated every turn, and you spend your time trying to win an attrition battle, usually breaking through with high-mobility units like tanks. This is present throughout the game.
Once rockets come on the scene, you gain the ability to compress several turns of attrition into one burst. This means you have a new tool for breaking a line, and by extension breaking a stalemate. Combat is more dynamic with longer stretches between these kinds of attacks. (Higher highs makes for more memorable fights.)
Limiting the precision tools to the same grinding-every-turn gameplay contributes to late-game war fatigue. I do agree that rockets as cheap throw-away units is the wrong overall approach --with that kind of design it's just a glorified attack animation, and resolving it as such doesn't strike me as losing much.
If we do end up with upgraded-city-attacks that simply use rocket animations, I think there's a strong argument that the same treatment should be applied to units that can carry rockets (and would no longer be able to do so under the new paradigm).
pineappledan
Deity
I would assert — Once again — that I am not advocating for the net removal of a unit line. I am advocating for the replacement of a line of 1-time-use air units with a line of reusable units.
Furthermore, I am suggesting we reuse the assets for missiles to add a new late game building that improves city attack.
Furthermore furthermore, a line of reusable air units would need its own promotion tree and set of abilities.
More content. Not less. And getting rid of the things that don’t work as a matter of course.
Furthermore, I am suggesting we reuse the assets for missiles to add a new late game building that improves city attack.
Furthermore furthermore, a line of reusable air units would need its own promotion tree and set of abilities.
More content. Not less. And getting rid of the things that don’t work as a matter of course.
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