Having a hard time on Deity

[CanaDutch]

Out of the 2 games I played on Immortal, I've won, so I got curious about playing on Deity. I saw some of the videos from MadDjinn where he uses ICS with Mayans and barely won a Domination victory. Since he never reloaded after a bad decision I figured I'd try Deity myself and since it's my first time I'll reload when I screw up.

I picked the Mayans as well, small map, Fractal. I met the Incas north of me who were connected to my continent with 1 tile. I also met the Koreans south-east of me and a little later the Celts, Mongolia and the Aztecs who were oddly enough connected to the Inca's continent by 1 tile as well.

I had enough land to settle 6 cities eventually, though I didn't get a lot of gold and luxury resources. I went with God of the sea, since I had a lot of fishing resources and figured that extra production would be a great edge to have.

It didn't take long before the Incas declared war on me, though. Fortunately I was able to hold off whatever the Incas was throwing at me with CBs. Meanwhile the Koreans where coveting my lands, but I was able to bribe them into war with the Celts.

Due to few happiness resources I didn't get libraries out to early, but the pyramids allowed me to keep up with the other civs. I was able to get Pagodas and Ceremonial Burial, and even the Great Mosque of Djenne and the Hagia Sophia for a decent religion game. The Long Count bonus was very useful as I could pick a GP that could really help in that moment. A bit after getting an Academy from the Liberty finisher and the MLC, I got the NC up at 920 AD, probably a bit too late. Using my spy, however, I was able to somewhat keep up with the other civs during the middle ages.

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I rushed for Frigates so I could bombard the endless stream of Inca forces, and so I could besiege his city near the chokepoint. It was only after I got artillery that I was able to take his city and a second one soon after, finally giving me real hope that I could win this game. However just after I took the second city, the Incas got Great War Bombers online. I decided to sue for peace, as instead of demanding all my cities, he was willing to give me 2000+ gold which I could use to upgrade my army.

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I decided to play ahead to see what would happen next. I made a defense pact with Montezuma and the defeated Mongols. Then after the peace treaty expired, Korea and the Incas declared war on me, with the Koreans opening up an undefended front and bringing 2 of my cities down to red. The Koreans are also running away in science as they're in the Atomic era while I'm still in the Industrial era.

At this point I'm not sure if I can still win, when the Deity AI has dozens of advanced units, who can now attack my most upgraded ones. I'm not sure where I've made mistakes that cost me the game, except for making the NC after settling 6 cities.

 

[CanaDutch]

Heh, guess it was too much to ask for some input from an experienced Deity player and whether I can still win the game I just spent many hours on ?

 

[The Pilgrim]

Wrong forum section. You should've posted here.

I can't open the file right now, but based on screenshots your bpt is very low and even if you can survive militarily (for now), conquest is probably not possible and AI is going to launch before you catch up. 920AD for NC is exceptionally late. Isn't it after 150?
If you only had enough land for 6 cities, ICS is out of the question. And overall, I think, ICS is very hard and very unlikely on deity. 6 native cities don't even justify Liberty, to be honest. If you still want to go Liberty and play wide (again, 6 cities isn't wide), you can do that, but not at the expense of science.

 

[Sidor1982]

On Deity you might do everything right and still don't get a victory. In your situation, as you noticed, going for 6 cities and only then the NC was a huge science delay.
Also you should notice which civs tend to become runaways, are the most dangerous in the early game, or are more or less irrelevant.
In the set you have Sejong is the most dangerous one as once he gets rolling tech wise, you won't catch up. Therefore he should be taken out in the first place. Gengis tends to ICS, so he's a potential runaway and Montezuma is an early aggressor (but he's the furthest away, so I wouldn't worry about that). Boudica and Pacachuti are in this set the "irrelevant" ones, also Monty if he doesn't conquer anyone fast.
So this would be a perfect way to go to get a Deity victory - Conquer Sejong fast, while keeping peace with Pachachuti and keep Monty occupied with Gengis. Once you manage to do that you should have enough tech advantage to defend an go for further conquests or tech victory. However it isn't a perfect world and early DoW from Pachachuti ruined such a gameplan for you. The probable cause for that was the ICS strategy, where a rapid expansion into his territory caused the DoW and has most likely caused you the game.
Additionally in my opinion the ICS strategy is not the best when playing on Deity. 3-4 cities Tradition opening is far more effective.

 

[CanaDutch]

Thanks for the replies, it's useful advice. I actually meant to post this in the 'Strategy and Tips' forum, but somehow screwed up on that. I certainly underestimated Deity due to impression I was given that you can win even while making several mistakes. I don't exactly remember why I built the NC so late, I probably felt some other things were more urgent since I had happiness problems in the beginning.

I certainly was coveting Korea's cities but the Incans were relentless. The cities I settled were basically on 'my' continent, and even had I gone for Tradition, Pacachuti would've probably DoW'ed me. Ah well, at least I was able to bring my people peace, if only temporarily, *le sigh* . Maybe next time I'll try an archipelago map as I haven't tried that yet.

 

[The Pilgrim]

On deity the number of mistakes you can afford is minimal unfortunately.

How about trying one of the ongoing Deity Challenges? Third challenge (Austria), for example, provides a very comfortable map with high success rate. Comparing your game to others' proved to be extremely helpful for most of us.

 

[Unresolved]

I've only won 1 Deity game, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. But I found that paying civs to DoW each other constantly helped keep the DoWs at a minimum. Everytime you get intel that someone is plotting against you, go and bribe 1 or 2 civs to go to war with them. The plotting AI might even DoF you to ensure that you don't DoW them.

 

[soprof]

Hard to understand how far behind are you, but in games like that I was able to hit before the techLeader won with a science victory.

Hit with 3-5 carriers full of any aa planes, better more, a dozen of battleships and a destroyer. Yes, 1 destroyer =D

Thanks god AI doesn't nuke my fleet, at least didn't happen to me =D

Often I won having 2-3 times less points - special feature of diety difficulty - behind all game long in all measurable parameters, only having 1 advantage - the will to win.

 

[CanaDutch]

Even though I've invested many hours into this game, I decided to start a new game with the Dutch, Small, Small Continents. Got the NC out on turn 73 with 2 cities and quickly settled another 2 settlers I bought afterwards, as I was conveniently able to become allies with a Mercantile CS. I often tend to get a good starting place with them, perhaps due the grassland starting bias (got only 1 floodplain this time though :/). Looks like this one will be easier, hopefully not too easy though .

 

[The Pilgrim]

Often I won having 2-3 times less points - special feature of diety difficulty - behind all game long in all measurable parameters, only having 1 advantage - the will to win.

Points don't matter, tech progress does. And based on bpt, this isn't looking good.
Good luck with your new game, CanaDutch!

 

[Light Cleric]

I would have probably settled 4 cities tops with this start. Just because you're the Maya doesn't mean you have to go wide and especially not ICS; personally I think ICS is a horrible idea compared to just going wide and then killing the AI for their cities.

Do you have the original save, by chance?

 

[CanaDutch]

Points don't matter, tech progress does. And based on bpt, this isn't looking good.
Good luck with your new game, CanaDutch!

Thanks! I tend to have a lot of fun playing with the Dutch (it's not just nationalistic pride though ) as their abilities are so flexible. I admittedly did re-roll a few times so I could get a big and fun enough mini continent for myself. So far I went with the Stone Circles Pantheon and I'll be rushing for education now.

Amusingly, the English settled Canterbury next to my capital, but it was nothing that my friends from Hong Kong couldn't raze .

I would have probably settled 4 cities tops with this start. Just because you're the Maya doesn't mean you have to go wide and especially not ICS; personally I think ICS is a horrible idea compared to just going wide and then killing the AI for their cities.

Do you have the original save, by chance?

I still have it and added it to my post . There are 3 huts if I remember correctly that you can get if you go north first. Perhaps settling further from Pachachuti could maybe prevent being at war with him forever. I went for Ceremonial Burial, but maybe Tithe would've been better as I was also able to get Pagodas. Good luck if you're going to give it a whirl .

 

[soprof]

Restarted 5 times(to get a tile you can place the goddamn polder on), lost a game with pretty good respawns, got no clue how can you call dutch any good, and esp. i can't understand, and i quote: "their abilities are so flexible".

Like worst national ability in the whole game, very hard to use special tile and a special unit which comes pretty late and has a very limited usage (maybe my early naval style is just not mature enought - i tend to mass frigades; G&K generally seems very friendly to ranged units). It's limited because getting AI's caravels without promotions just lowers my income. Chances go lower for higher tier units, had capture chance of like 25% versus an ironclan. Not like I need an ironclad anyway.

Very limited abilities/units for both pvm&pvp.

 

[Light Cleric]

I think they may not fit your playstyle or you are simply playing them incorrectly. I would hardly say their UA is "worst in the whole game"; it's what makes them flexible. That's part of why I don't like playing the Dutch, they feel very..."vanilla" and can do everything well but don't excel at one thing in particular.

 

[The Pilgrim]

They are a little similar to England having perks that conflict with each other. Usually you can maximize the use of only one english UU and same with the Dutch. UA shines on big pangaea like landmasses while naval UU is pretty useless on these and vise versa. Still a good civ. UI is amazing (though luck dependent).

 

[chazzycat]

The dutch are all about REXing and luxury trades, IMO. Polders and the UU are more situational, but their lux trading advantage always comes into play. They have the fastest REX in the business, actually. Sell your early luxes ASAP to buy settlers while staying happy. Later, trade every lux you have 1-for-1 with the AI. That way you get 6 happiness per lux, basically protectionism for free. It can be a big advantage.

 

[soprof]

looks like an "advertisement" to me:
GET +2 HAPPINESS FOR FREE*!!!!!!

*You just have to satisfy the following:
1. Scout someone to trade with(condition 1);
2. You have to have a lux which AI doesn't have(condition 2), while not having more lux of the same kind than you can trade away*(condition 3);
3. AI has to have multiple instances(condition 4) of another lux you don't have(condition 5), otherwise you just trade your hapiness for gold, if AI has it(side condition);
4. You have to be constantly in peace with that civ(condition 6), which can be pretty hard, assuming you satisfied condition #1 - so most likely you're neighbors;
5. Other civ will not trade with you if it is hostile(condition 7), which is easy to archive @ higher difficulties.

So to get a groundbreaking&gamemaking bonus of +2 hapiness at a certain turn you need to satisfy just 6-7 conditions, not bad!

 

[Light Cleric]

looks like an "advertisement" to me:
GET +2 HAPPINESS FOR FREE*!!!!!!

*You just have to satisfy the following:
1. Scout someone to trade with(condition 1);
2. You have to have a lux which AI doesn't have(condition 2), while not having more lux of the same kind than you can trade away*(condition 3);
3. AI has to have multiple instances(condition 4) of another lux you don't have(condition), otherwise you get just trade your hapiness for gold, if AI has it(condition 5);
4. You have to be constantly in peace with that civ(condition 6), which can be pretty hard, assuming you satisfied confition #1 - so most likely you're neighbors;
5. Other civ will not trade with you if it is hostile(condition 7), which is easy to archive @ higher difficulties.

So to get a groundbreaking&gamemaking bonus of +2 hapiness at a certain turn you need to satisfy just 6-7 conditions, not bad!

That is an incredibly silly way of "analyzing" their UA or pretty much anything else for that matter.

Most of those conditions are so silly and specific that I don't even know how to take your post seriously. Like, really, "You have to scout"? You mean like you have to do with every other civilization in the game to meet people and interact with them?

The only one even worth addressing is #3: one of the biggest selling points of it is to trade for 240 gold and still keep 2 of the happiness which is a fair trade to me on turn ~20 because I got gold towards a Settler and still kept happiness to keep growing. That is why I mean by flexibility.

Most of those conditions only apply to trading lux for lux, which is a pretty bad idea most of the time and I guess that goes back to my earlier post of possibly misplaying them

 

[The Pilgrim]

They got nerfed in fall patch though. But still on higher levels and big landmasses they rock.

 

[tommynt]

Heh, guess it was too much to ask for some input from an experienced Deity player and whether I can still win the game I just spent many hours on ?

trn 211 - 291 science seems very low, but dont think game is lost at all.
No runaway civ - think non can win before turn 270 - gives u 80 turns to do some damage. And your army seems good enough to do so

But your capital should really be bigger as size 12.
U had 211 turn to grow it - so had an avarage grow every 19 turns or so - I bet you can do better then that next game.