Having trouble with early expansion and science

[Ashcristokos]

So, recently I have been making a concerted effort to become better at this game rather than just playing mindlessly again and again, but my biggest issue really is the early game. Strategy articles often highlight two key points: the importance of establishing your core cities (3-4 for tradition, 5-6 for liberty, yea?) within the first 100 turns and the importance of getting your national college up and running. I generally have a lot of trouble with both for two key reasons: hammers and happiness.

Even when playing tall, I seem to find it impossible to keep my happiness high enough to expand very rapidly. I have been trying to get out that first worker and settler earlier though, but it seems like getting all of those, plus more military units to defend the empire and additional workers to develop new cities consumes an enormous amount of time that leaves all of my cities falling behind. And then when I do get those cities up, I can never grow them too much or I become unhappy.

The other issue is then that all of those cities need libraries for the national college, which can easily take forevvvveerrr to build in new cities with low hammer production, leaving a new city investing an inordinate amount of time building libraries and not producing basic infrastructure, leading to those cities lagging far behind.

TL;DR: When I don't really expand until after I build the NC, I can get it up quickly. If I do expand and get the core cities up, however, I find it impossible to get the NC up and running early enough for my tastes. I guess my questions are:

1) How do you manage to do both at the same time, expanding while keeping the empire happy and building the libraries you need for the NC? Or are sacrifices in one area always necessary?

2) How early should I be building workers and settlers? I do understand that the answer likely depends on whether I'm going Tradition or Liberty.

3) Also, on continental maps, should I be building two scouts or one?

Thank you very much for any help guys!

 

[CraigMak]

A good build is scout, scout, shrine, settler, settler, settler. You steal workers from CS and improve luxuries immediately as well as build on top of luxuries when possible.

This is going tradition.

 

[BruinBound]

I don't mean to shamelessly promote my own videos, but in this case I think they would be quite helpful. I will do it just this once and then never again

I made a few short guides that I think would help you out quite a bit:
Scouting & Worker Stealing
Growth
Defense
Economy

I think the Scouting & Worker Stealing one would make the most sense for you. For continents I would still advocate two scouts, it may be overkill if you are a bit isolated but they almost always pay for themselves x3.

 

[Sbordj]

I guess it also depends on which difficulty you're playing.

Talking about libraries taking a lot of time, you'll see that some players just buy them in the cities with low hammers. You'd get the money by selling your luxuries, but if you play in low/medium difficulties, the AI will not have enough money at the beginning of the game to really make it work.

 

[Athenaeum]

One thing that is very important pre-NC is to build a granary in at least one of your cities (although I typically build it first thing in most of my cities when going Tradition, although terrain also plays a factor), and then build a caravan or cargo ship in another city. Then, send a food trade route to the last city you founded before deciding to focus on National College.

If you're trying to build 3 cities before NC for example, build a granary in cap or 2nd city, and send a food trade route to the 3rd city so it can work hills or other production tiles and not have to worry about food. This way you can build the library faster, since the last city you build before doing NC is the limiting factor in terms of how early you can start building the NC.

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When stealing workers from a city-state I always try to pick a city-state that is near my empire as opposed to far away (obviously), and I try to milk it for more than one worker. Most people make peace right after stealing the 1st worker and I object to this. Every worker you can steal is a worker you don't have to build, and the lost influence from declaring war will be reimbursed once you make peace with it, no matter how long it takes for you to do that. So if you need two extra workers, no point in making peace before uve gotten all the workers you need.

More advice on worker-stealing. I suggest leveling up at least one of your scouts to level 2 through barbarian combat and taking the visibility 1 promotion. This makes it easier to steal city state workers because your scout can see them coming from further away.

If there are 2 city states right next to your capital, you can place a +1 visibility scout between the two city states and thus keep watch on both at the same time to produce a worker. By the way, I've noticed city-states typically have workers around turn 16-18 on Emperor, and it can be earlier for higher difficulties, or later for easier diffs, or for city-states that only have sea luxuries or not many bonus land resources.

Remember that city-states, like regular cities, have visibility up to one tile from their border. They can also see hills that are 2 tiles from their border. Thus is you place your scout on a hill that's 2 tiles from their border, they can see your scout, and they won't send a worker out where it will be vulnerable for you to take it.

You want to trick the city-state by keeping your scout or other capture unit hidden, and then stealing the worker when it is trapped. For example, if the city state has a gold hill on its border, sit your scout on a flatland tile 2 tiles from that hill and non-adjacent to their border. When the worker moves onto the hill, it will exhaust all movement points, leaving you free to capture it.

You can also research The Wheel and build a War Chariot just so you can have a 4 movement unit to fly in and take it if you need to. The War Chariot can also help with early defense or barb control.


The game is all about just juggling a bunch of different things at one time. Sorry for the long scrambled post but maybe you can get something out of it.

 

[Athenaeum]

So to answer your three questions:

1) Understand what your "limiting factor" is when you're trying to build National College. It's usually the last city you build before you choose to focus on National College. Send food trade routes to that city so it can focus on production tiles and build that library faster.

2) It depends a lot on terrain. Remember settling is highly competitive. Do you have nearby neighbors? If so you'll want to build a settler sooner. On difficulties Emperor and lower, or playing with human players, I would say start building a settler around turn 8-12, in that area. On higher difficulties, its extremely difficult to compete with AI's for settlement spots and you should probably start even earlier than that.


3) Depends if you're going Tradition or Liberty. Tradition can generally afford 2 scouts. With Liberty, youll probably want one scout then Monument, or even Monument first in certain, very specific circumstances.

This is because culturally speaking, Tradition can take care of itself without you building a monument. Once you adopt the Tradition opener, you're getting 4 culture per turn, and its a matter of time until you adopt Legalism, which will boost it to 8 or 10, once you have built 3 or 4 cities respectively.

But with Liberty, you don't get free monuments, and the immediate culture bonus from the Liberty bonus is only 1 instead of 3. So you really need an early monument with Liberty, especially considering that you want to adopt Collective Rule ASAP.



P.S. This assumes Quick pace!

 

[Dushku]

I have been trying to get out that first worker and settler earlier though

This might actually be problematic. It's good to build a worker early to get lux/strats online. However, building a Settler TOO early can cripple your empire. I used to use 3-4 pop as a rule of thumb. Somebody made a good case for 4-5. I've taken it to heart and my starts have gotten good enough that I'm ready for Immortal I think.

but it seems like getting all of those, plus more military units to defend the empire

Defend from what? Unless you're playing on deity, you have time to establish your borders first. Your Warrior and Scout can get a look at the surrounding area, then pull them back. Your Scout can defend protect your worker while your Warrior escorts Settlers. Once your expands are in place, THEN your capital can build a couple Archers while it's waiting for Libraries and Philosophy to come online.

There are times when you're in the middle of 3 barb camps and nothing else is close enough for them to harass. Then you'll need a couple military. Otherwise, city bombard is usually good enough.

additional workers to develop new cities consumes an enormous amount of time that leaves all of my cities falling behind.

Usually you can get away with building just one Worker. Stealing from enemy civs in the Ancient Era has almost no permanent repercussions. You can steal from CSs as well, but try and only declare war on CSs once. You can even stay at perpetual war with them and steal additional workers and no added penalty. This CS farm isn't ideal for getting ALL your workers, but can be useful for grabbing 1 or 2 extra to get your roads up.

Liberty is even easier. Not only do you get your policy worker, but you can usually fit Pyramids in just before NC.

a new city investing an inordinate amount of time building libraries and not producing basic infrastructure

With the exception of your first expand, the Library IS the basic infrastructure. Your first expand has a bit of a wild card up front since the time between it and your last pre-NC expand means it has more time to build something else and develop pop to build Library faster. Use this window for a Shrine or an Archer. Or Monument if you're opening Liberty.

3) Also, on continental maps, should I be building two scouts or one?

On pangaea, even when playing Tradition, I've found one Scout followed by Monument is a worthwhile build path. Once the Monument is up, then decide if you want to build a 2nd Scout or not.

I've done a few videos demonstrating strong openings and/or dealing with keeping happiness up while rapidly expanding. See if one or two might be helpful to you:

http://youtube.com/gtadem

 

[Redaxe]

Is it at all possible to play wide liberty on say immortal/diety difficulty and completely ignore the turn 80-100 National College strategy.

I mean lets say instead you tech to metal casting before Education and focus on building stoneworks, circuses and colosseums so your cities can grow larger and produce more beakers from a larger population. Does that at all compensate for not having an early National College.
Of course you would still build the NC later it's just trying to fit it in takes a lot of precision in your game management.

 

[FrostK]

Redaxe, going wide on deity usually means war - cause you are missing place for good cities and also AI will hate you. So I dont think that NC is a main problem here.

On imm, you can just play wide without NC at all.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

On pangaea, even when playing Tradition, I've found one Scout followed by Monument is a worthwhile build path. Once the Monument is up, then decide if you want to build a 2nd Scout or not.

This is a pretty bad advice.
Very often when people have problem with game I see theirs screenshots on 300t and barely half map explored with lots on undiscovered CSs, natural wonders, etc.
Really you can't underestimate early game and early game is almost all about good exploration.

I start with two scouts on pangea, followed by shrine if chances on good pantheon, if not built three scouts. Chances are they discover at least one culture ruins what allows you get fast free monument from tradition. Scouts ability to steal workers, clearing barb camps for quests with a little bit of luck, finding fast CSs for easy quests (e.g. discover land) is really not something what can be underestimated.

 

[Redaxe]

This is a pretty bad advice.
Very often when people have problem with game I see theirs screenshots on 300t and barely half map explored with lots on undiscovered CSs, natural wonders, etc.
Really you can't underestimate early game and early game is almost all about good exploration.

I start with two scouts on pangea, followed by shrine if chances on good pantheon, if not built three scouts. Chances are they discover at least one culture ruins what allows you get fast free monument from tradition. Scouts ability to steal workers, clearing barb camps for quests with a little bit of luck, finding fast CSs for easy quests (e.g. discover land) is really not something what can be underestimated.

For Diety 2 scouts, shrine seems to be the most popular start I've noticed - at least on the DCLs. If you want to have a shot at a religion that order is almost always essential

On lower difficulties i'm not quite so sure but usually pangaea is always best with 2 scouts, continents 1-2, small continents 1, islands-archipaelago 0 I guess

 

[Redaxe]

Redaxe, going wide on deity usually means war - cause you are missing place for good cities and also AI will hate you. So I dont think that NC is a main problem here.

Well that's what I wonder. Peaceful wide liberty on Diety is certainly challenging but the NC really is a thorn in your side for this strat. Lets assume you have a capital the size of 8 by turn 80 with a NC (generous for a wide liberty game focused on building settlers).

Your NC will generate an extra 10 beakers per turn.

Now it may well be that focusing entirely on building a colosseum across 10 cities instead will allow you to generate an extra 20 beakers per turn if we focus on allowing our cities to grow larger than would normally be possible if I had taken time off building settlers to focus on a NC.

If I find a new Diety DCL that is favourable to a wide peaceful game maybe i'll try this.

 

[Athenaeum]

This might actually be problematic. It's good to build a worker early to get lux/strats online. However, building a Settler TOO early can cripple your empire. I used to use 3-4 pop as a rule of thumb. Somebody made a good case for 4-5. I've taken it to heart and my starts have gotten good enough that I'm ready for Immortal I think.


http://youtube.com/gtadem

IF you wait that long on Immortal to be a settler you're going to have a bad time. I've had games on Immortal where AI's had 3 cities by turn 16 (quick pace). You might be able to wait that long on human games and difficulties below Immortal but otherwise no.

 

[Athenaeum]

This is a pretty bad advice.
Very often when people have problem with game I see theirs screenshots on 300t and barely half map explored with lots on undiscovered CSs, natural wonders, etc.
Really you can't underestimate early game and early game is almost all about good exploration.

I start with two scouts on pangea, followed by shrine if chances on good pantheon, if not built three scouts. Chances are they discover at least one culture ruins what allows you get fast free monument from tradition. Scouts ability to steal workers, clearing barb camps for quests with a little bit of luck, finding fast CSs for easy quests (e.g. discover land) is really not something what can be underestimated.

I think 3 scouts is still excessive unless you are Spain, but that is a good point though. Scouts are better for purposes other than exploring. They can steal workers, escort settlers, block settlers and workers, and even if they're weak combat units, they can zone control barbs to prevent them from pillaging improvements or doing other things, and they can use their visibility promotions to become a basic flashlight.

 

[wayneb64]

I play Immortal Quick and I neither rush NC or settlers. Everything is done 'in it's time'. Scouting is the first priority and two scouts are a must unless trapped on a small island. If a worker happens to cross my path, great I will take it assuming it and my unit won't be immediately killed. Stealing an AI worker is the best as it sets them back.

Getting my capitol well developed is my first priority, and keeping my eye on the nearby AIs is the second. Hindering/killing their first settler is usually what happens instead of beating them to my expansion targets with a settler. I don't look at capitol pop, but rather how many turns my capitol will NOT be growing as to when it's a good time to build a settler. If my scouts got lots of gold I may even buy it instead.

The NC comes as soon as it's convenient. If my capitol is nice and big my science is enough to keep me in the neighborhood of the AIs. Adding 50% science to a small science number doesn't really help that much. My hammers would prefer to go into archers to keep the AI down.

 

[CraigMak]

So to answer your three questions:

1) Understand what your "limiting factor" is when you're trying to build National College. It's usually the last city you build before you choose to focus on National College. Send food trade routes to that city so it can focus on production tiles and build that library faster.





P.S. This assumes Quick pace!

I prefer to send all of my caravans to my cap at all times when possible. I think it's better for your cap to be that much bigger all game long than to have your NC a few turns earlier.

3 city tradition = 2 caravans pointing to my cap while it works on NC.

My 4th city usually starts straight library if my NC isn't up yet.

 

[reddishrecue]

For Diety 2 scouts, shrine seems to be the most popular start I've noticed - at least on the DCLs. If you want to have a shot at a religion that order is almost always essential

On lower difficulties i'm not quite so sure but usually pangaea is always best with 2 scouts, continents 1-2, small continents 1, islands-archipaelago 0 I guess

Yeah, shrine starts are usually better than monument starts because you could end up with a stockpile of social policies before an ideology that could be an excess of social policies that could've instead been used on the ideology tenents. With a few excess social policies left incomplete, social policies become a lot more expensive to acquire and eventually leads to slower completion of ideology.

 

[Athenaeum]

I prefer to send all of my caravans to my cap at all times when possible. I think it's better for your cap to be that much bigger all game long than to have your NC a few turns earlier.

3 city tradition = 2 caravans pointing to my cap while it works on NC.

My 4th city usually starts straight library if my NC isn't up yet.

I agree too that it is best for capital to have higher pop than other cities, especially considering that is usually has the NC and its population contributes to benefits from Monarchy policy.

With that said, it's best to get NC out of the way earlier so you can focus on building other things, like more trade units, workers, or whatever else u need.

Also, depending on the terrain of your 3rd city, i think sending a food trade route to it is going to save you more than just 3-4 turns towards a library. Your 3rd city can work hills and grow at the same time, which is going to save you quite a few turns on that library.

After done with NC, I typically do send most of my trade routes to capital.

 

[BruinBound]

I think 3 scouts is still excessive unless you are Spain.

There is a time I would have agreed with you, but the more I've played and the better I've gotten my opinion of scouts has increased dramatically. 3 scouts on pangaea is very good advice, but obviously you need to use them well.

 

[CraigMak]

There is a time I would have agreed with you, but the more I've played and the better I've gotten my opinion of scouts has increased dramatically. 3 scouts on pangaea is very good advice, but obviously you need to use them well.

I like scouts a lot too but you can't delay that shrine or you risk losing the pantheon that you want. Then you're building settlers or a worker if there's none to steal.