Help! Getting Stuck on Monarch

[Biggio07]

So here are the facts. This is my first post as a Civfanatic, only been playing CIV4 for seven months, and played Monarch for the last two. Problem is I've yet to win at Monarch. Prince has become easy and is not challenging enough for me. However, with early or late leads, Monarch eventually eats my lunch. A save of my current game (BTS, pangea, epic) is attached to this post.

Basically, I am looking for a critique and some advice on how I can turn this game into a winning one. Will give more details if needed. ALL help will be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm at work and as such can't look at games at the moment.

I started a thread a couple weeks back when I was trying to jump from Monarch to Emperor: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=271411

The focus of the thread is on setting up the early game: specifically how to REX or expand while keeping up decently in research.

Also, as you go up in levels start considering researching things you can trade for rather than the same techs the AI has (even if those techs are useful), such as aesthetics, early Metal Casting, Literature, Drama, Code of Laws (once an AI has it more usually won't go for it ASAP), etc. Of course, if you're isolated then ignore researching things to trade and research only what helps you the most!

Cities are very important. Moreso than wonders, IMO, unless you're trying to make a super settled specialist capitol like Obsolete does, but you'll have to look at his games for how to do that. Anyway, try to get more cities...early on the costs to research can be offset via running scientists off libraries.

Now, granted if you can easily get certain wonders and your situation is such that you can make use of them, by all means do it. For example, getting GLH in isolated games and settling mostly coastal cities near seafood at first is a huge boost, and will get ridiculous the second you get astronomy (GLH is pretty good whenever the majority of your planned cities are coastal). If you have stone, definitely consider Pyramids or GW...Pyramids are a huge hammer wonder so they usually go later...often you can settle a 3rd or 4th city even and chop them there.

The point is, usually I only wind up getting ONE or TWO of these types of wonders, if any. The rest can be captured . You want enough cities to be able to compete with the AI once they're developed. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean you have to settle them peacefully...on Monarch I'd often build about 4 cities then start massing units...usually axes, swords, UU's, or horse archers (surprisingly effective!). I'd often get to 10 cities pretty quickly, but what I didn't realize until I hit emperor was that you can often get 10 cities peacefully, although if you can block it off and still rush good land from the AI that's potentially even better. No two maps are alike.

Take a look at some of the advice in that thread though too...many of the people who posted and helped me there are QUITE good .

 

[Bleys]

First if all, WELCOME to the CFC!! The very best move you can make to gain a higher level of understanding and skill in this game is joining these boards, and reading them.

It looks to me like you are already winning. You have taken out one opponent, have a solid base of cities, room to drop in a couple more later, you are playing one of the strongest leaders in the game (Liz) and you have the Pyramids. Time to consolidate your advantage, and decide on a path for the future, military or financial, I think.

Some suggestions:

Use the whip. I notice none of your cities has any whip anger whatsoever. Even if you are concerned about over-whipping and the Slave revolt event, use it sparingly, but use it.

If you want to play a more active military style, and have the capacity to take out another AI soon, you need to get some Barracks up. Promoted units are SO much stronger than greenhorns.

Granaries, Granaries, Granaries! Holy cow, it looks like you only have 1? For 6 cities. This is where the whip can help you. Whipping a Granary means the pop you just killed can come back much faster. You want vertical growth with the Mids.

You were building Wealth in a few cities. Why? You have a pretty strong economy already, and its going to get stronger with Liz as your leader. Dont be afraid to let that slider drop some, because now, with Rep, you can make up the beakers in speciaists.

You were also building Temples in a few cities. Again, why? Rep helped your happiness problems quite a bit, so now you need to focus on the infrastructure to leverage it. That means Forges for an Engineer Specialist, Libraries for Scientists, Markets for Merchants. Sure, you can swap into Caste when you finish CoL, but its early, and you can still get a lot of mileage from Slavery, whipping important buildings for a bit until you get them built. My suggestion is to focus on Granaries and Barracks, and once you have gotten a few, you can abandon Slavery for Caste and get some nice teching from your well-fed cities.

Use your workers more efficiently. You have every single tile in Londons BFC improved, but Hastings is working 3 unimproved tiles. Remember, you are not likely to be over 8 pop for a bit, so there is no rush to mass-improve any city. Make sure all cities have a few improved tiles to work, and move your workers to the next city. Get those resource tiles improved as well, not sure when you got AH, but you have a PILE of pastures to build.

All in all you have a strong game here, mate. Not sure why you are worried. Is this a "spot" where you seem to start to lose your grip on the game? I think perhaps you should read some of the strategy articles, especially the ones about city specialization, and focus. You seem to be rather unfocused. If you want a strong military (and I wouldnt blame you with these neighbors!), then build one, get those Barracks down, start pumping out some Cats, more Spears and Axes. Trade for Archery so you can have a cheap, strong garrison unit, and gather up your forces. Once you get the horses online, build some chariots, or even HAs (one AI has HBR for trade, I think).

Dont be afraid of Opening borders either. Let Sal spread Hinduism to all your cities, or let Issy spread Buddhism. When the AIs like that see cities to "convert", they will build missionaries instead of Swordsmen. You have a pretty neutral diplomatic stance right now, so you should have a nice buffer of time to prepare either a strong defensive posture or an army capable of taking out an AI.

All in all, I like the look of this game, I am going to play it a couple hundred turns, if you dont mind, and maybe upload it so you can take a look. I am no expert, I am a Monarch+ to Emperor- level player (means I can beat Emp some, but generally dont like the grind, preferring the calmer waters of Monarch level).

And read. In fact, read a LOT. These boards are a HUGE boost to anyones skill. Just reading threads jumps your skill level quite a bit (IMHO, that is). You have a solid grasp of the basics, you obviously executed a very efficient Axe Rush on an opponent that is notoriously tough, Pacal. That carved you out a NICE chunk of land, and gave you a killer city in Mutal. London is strong as well, although why you farmed every single Plains tile is beyond me. I prefer some workshops, and when you hit Guilds, the switch to Caste System can really jack up your Production. But I see you want to run a big GP farm in London, and thats a nice idea, but I would turn Mutal into a GP farm, and make London a strong Bureaucracy capitol with a mix of Cottages, farms and mines.

One of the very very most key factors to competing comfortably at Monarch and above is focus. I think you have a strong basic style, but you need to polish it up some. That is where these boards will help you.

BTW, what tech did you take from the Oracle?

 

[Bleys]

Cities are very important. Moreso than wonders, IMO, unless you're trying to make a super settled specialist capitol like Obsolete does, but you'll have to look at his games for how to do that. Anyway, try to get more cities...early on the costs to research can be offset via running scientists off libraries.

Hes no wonder-addict (like me), that much is VERY obvious. He has 2, the Oracle and the Pyramids. No one will argue with those choices at Monarch, heh.

Be careful of my advice, LOL, I am a well-known Wonder addict. I even get lurkers in my SG games warning my team-mates! :cough: rolo :cough:: )

He has a very nice game going though, so nice, in fact, I am playing it, LOL, despite my usual half-a-dozen half-games on my plate already.

AHA! I see a big problem already! You have all your workers on Auto. No wonder London has 20 Farms and some cites dont even have resource tiles improved!

Automated workers are generally not a good idea. Its not hard to keep them busy, and you will have much stronger cities that way.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I did admit I've not seen his game, but wonders seem to be a problem for a lot of players (I was actually the other way, sometimes neglecting to build wonders that would have helped me greatly). If he just went oracle/mids and is actually using specialists for scientists than it sounds good to me.

I have to agree on automating workers...that really kills worker turns and often their improvement choices are not optimal. Automating workers is for when you're just learning the game or the game is basically over already and you don't want to bother with it anymore (say, domination attempts where you have 20 + cities...you can probably automate them!). Generally, you want to control them yourself. It doesn't even take that long, maybe an extra 10-15 seconds per turn once you're used to it, if that (I'm assuming around 10ish workers for this estimate, but generally only a couple need new orders on any given turn).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

First thought: if you want people to invest their efforts in your game, you should make a show of demonstrating investment of your own. Some suggestions.

But I've some extra discretionary time today, so I looked anyway.

It seems that the basic plot was too hook up copper immediately for an axe rush , then join the Oracle race, then you teched without an particular purpose until you made a trade that backfilled for you.

You've got a winning position here, but if you don't regain your focus it may escape from you. For instance, London isn't working it's best tile, because it doesn't have enough food, thanks to the unpasturized pigs; and yet your workers are scattered all over the map, improving your smaller cities.

Looking at the opening, Bronzeworking was probably reasonable, and Mutal is clearly a rush worthy prize, so Wheel next seems quite sensible. Under normal circumstances, I'd probably have settled York one lane lower on the map (SE,S,SW depending on taste), but so be it.

From here, you take a dramatic turn from what I would have considered sensible. After all, you have two cities with meat at that point, so I would have been looking towards Animal Husbandry rather than Oracle.

 

[pigswill]

Had a look at the save.

Good basis for an empire already - letting an AI build a wonder while you build an army to take it from them is always a good trick.

Take workers off automation. You've been building lots of farms and haven't connected some resources. Its more work but you'll get a far better outcome.

Decide on city specialisation.

Decide on your objective for the next thousand years or so. Establishing Lib sling is the standard one but its not compulsory.

 

[Diamondeye]

Short shameless promotion of a game series I am running along with Bleys, FutureHermit, R_Rolo1 and OTAKUjbski, we are currently playing a concurrent succession game on Monarch with random leaders and random map, so if you have trouble beating monarch, I bet you can learn alot from it, it has already helped me

Just follow the link in my sig

 

[siggboy]

I've had a look at your saved game:

• You've got 9 workers (enough at this point), but way too many unimproved resources. The pigs in your capital must be pastured as well as the horses in that western city. Get those Workers off automation, it seems the main problem in your empire! Early workers should not be automated because they tend to build way too many farms, they "secure" resources with forts (wasted effort) and generally don't prioritize things as you would like them to. Which is evident by looking at your save.
• Not a single cottage around your capital (BAD!). You are financial and cottages are one of the best improvements to leverage that trait. Don't farm plains, and put cottages on grasslands first (plains only if you have excess food from resources to work them).
• The capital doesn't have a Granary yet, but you seem to be trying to grow it quickly by working only food tiles. Start working all those nice hammer tiles and get a Granary next, it will grow your city much quicker. Also get up Granaries in all other cities ASAP.
• If you built the Oracle that late (around 250 BC in your game), don't pick Currency as your free tech. You could as well try a Civil Service slingshot (that means you research Code of Laws after Mathematics and then pick CS as your free tech). The CS slingshot would probably have worked in your case, especially if you had built more cottages earlier. With Civil Service in the BCs, you usually win the game due to the insane research and production that the capital puts out.
  Secondly, Currency was not the best option for a free tech anyway. I don't think it was critical to get it at this stage, and Metal Casting would have given you a lot more "bang for the buck" (it's also very good to trade away to the AI).
• That beautiful sea-side city with all the fish will be your GP farm. Get a lighthouse there after you finish the Library, then make sure you run max. specialists all the time. Maybe switch to Caste System and farm Great Scientists (stop running priests).
• Research Aesthetics/Literature and build the Great Library and National Epic (both in the fish city). Get an Academy into the fish city with the first Great Scientist, and use the next few to lightbulb Philosophy, Paper, Education on the way to Liberalism. Switch to Pacifism with Philosophy.
  You are philosophical and will have Great Scientists coming out of your ears. Liberalism will come so early that you can probably spend hundreds of years researching side techs before the AI catches up, squeezing some super-expensive tech out of Liberalism (Rifling would be nice, then draft Redcoats .
• Personally I would get the Globe Theatre into the fish city, and after Rifling/Nationalism run all food tiles there and draft, draft, draft (one Redcoat each turn).
• OPEN BORDERS!!! Open to hindu civs first to get that religion and adopt it, then open to the rest of them.

Your game is totally winnable. Carthage should be next on your list of civs to conquer, or maybe the American who has the hindu holy city. With the expected HUGE tech lead and Redcoats you can take the continent by storm at that point (although I'd go for Carthage earlier to train some City Raider maces which can then be upgraded to City Raider Redcoats, which will be D-E-A-D-L-Y).

 

[Bleys]

. . . they "secure" resources with forts (wasted effort) and generally don't prioritize things as you would like them to. Which is evident by looking at your save.

While you are 100% correct in this situation (other resources should have been hooked up before non-critical non-BFC resources were "Forted") I have been giving this some thought, and I actually like the AI trick of using Forts.

In the past, I have always built whichever improvement was needed on every single resource tile in my empire, whether it is in a BFC or not. But now that I consider it, I think its probably a smart idea to put forts on resources outside any cities BFC. You arent going to work the tile anyway, so why not have a "outpost" to pop some units into in case of an invasion? You still get the "access" to the resource on the tile, but you gain a bit of defense, especially since those non-BFC resources tend to be on the outskirts of your territory.

Of course, if you plan to drop a city in those areas later, its nice to have the tiles pre-improved for faster development of the city, but we have all had those stray resource tiles that will never see a cities BFC.

Good analysis sig, my thoughts exactly. I actually played about 100 more turns of the game, up til I lost the GL by 3 turns (my fault, I didnt research to Lit fast enough), and you are spot on. Mutal is an incredible GP-Science city, and once I cottaged over some of Londons tiles, it was sick how strong it was for either hammers or commerce. I especially like the "open borders with the Hindus first" trick, LOL, I never considered that, and actually got a bunch of Buddism cities as a result (I opened with everyone the turn I took over)

 

[siggboy]

You still get the "access" to the resource on the tile, but you gain a bit of defense, especially since those non-BFC resources tend to be on the outskirts of your territory.

I feel like a complete ****** for not knowing that building a fort on a resource gives you access to that resource (for the sake of trading it away or corporations or getting a production bonus). In that light, it is completely reasonable to put forts on top of these "outskirt" resource tiles (if you can afford the higher build time of a fort compared to simply improving the resource).

The improved (BtS) forts are really great, by the way, I've used them in the past as air bases and ship ports already (awesome to create canals on archi maps which can greatly cut down on the travel times of your navies).

I especially like the "open borders with the Hindus first" trick, LOL, I never considered that, and actually got a bunch of Buddism cities as a result (I opened with everyone the turn I took over)

Not only do open borders increase the likelyhood of a random religion spread from that side, they also allow that civ to send their missionaries over, which they absolutely love to do. I have not played into the game at hand, but I bet that the American, with the holy city, will start sending you hindus right away after you open borders to him.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

You arent going to work the tile anyway, so why not have a "outpost" to pop some units into in case of an invasion?

Because it's a good way to get slaughtered by a bunch of city raiders?

 

[lovetramy]

the jump from Prince to Monarch pretty similar from Noble to Prince . You just seen AI tech much faster and expand a little faster too . So just play a few game you can get use to it . From Monarch to Emperor is a bigger jump because AI not only tech faster but they have much more unit and aggressive AI like Shaka sometimes take care of you with 20+ stack with catas even in the BC

 

[Bandobras Took]

Because it's a good way to get slaughtered by a bunch of city raiders?

? Forts count as cities for city raider promotions? I thought they only counted for CG defense.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

? Forts count as cities for city raider promotions? I thought they only counted for CG defense.

CR works against forts. Of course, you do get terrain benefits also.

I've found the AI will often ignore forts though, or try to overwhelm them with siege.

To me the best active defense by far seems to be killing off enemy siege with flanking mounted and then watching it suicide into fortifications. Doing so is ridiculously powerful in the middle ages.

 

[Gliese 581]

The best use of forts on resources you're not going to work is when it's a calendar resource, then you'll get the happy/health benefit immediately once you obtain calendar.

 

[Gliese 581]

CR works against forts. Of course, you do get terrain benefits also.

I've found the AI will often ignore forts though, or try to overwhelm them with siege.

To me the best active defense by far seems to be killing off enemy siege with flanking mounted and then watching it suicide into fortifications. Doing so is ridiculously powerful in the middle ages.

You forgot doing so as an imperialistic civ behind the great wall.
Sorry, I just wish to experience that some day.

 

[siggboy]

The best use of forts on resources you're not going to work is when it's a calendar resource, then you'll get the happy/health benefit immediately once you obtain calendar.

That is great, I'll do that from now on. I found that often my workers don't have a lot of useful things to do while I'm waiting for calendar, because everything else has been improved at that point.

Another thing is Wine, not really that much you're missing even if it's in a city's BFC, so priming it with forts and get the wineries later seems to be a good strategy.

 

[Johnpecan]

I feel like a complete ****** for not knowing that building a fort on a resource gives you access to that resource (for the sake of trading it away or corporations or getting a production bonus).

Holy crap, that makes so much sense. I've made it to Immortal without knowing this ><