Help me understand this nonsense

[Stysiaq]

Hello everyone! It's my first thread I created, after introducing myself in the sticky for new forumites.

So, I know that the AI is a bit messy when it comes to "diplomacy", but I just experienced something that got me puzzled.

The setting was my usual; random leader, difficulty 6, large continents, standard pace. I started as Morocco and after a while I met with my neighbour, Shaka. Knowing that this leader is likely to attack me (and having a cultural/diplomatic victory in mind), I did my best to befriend him; I was the first to discover religion (and to grab Desert Folklore) and spread it to all surrounding CS and Zulu cities, I traded with him and even gave him a luxury for free by mistake. Later on when Shaka found his own religion I managed to free his captured Great Prophet and give him back.

It was pretty early in the game when Shaka asked me for my friendship, which I gladly accepted. The next round he proposed a Research Agreement. However, the very next round he actually DENOUNCED me. When he reached Renessaince (and I was finished building Sistine Chapel), not to much surprise, I saw hordes of Impi at my border and Shaka DoWed me, and I responded with closing the game.

What the hell? How does the AI operate? I thought it starts to act like an idiot when there are many variables; I at least expected that when AI befriends you and does a RA, it will have some consistency for an amount of time. Is it a prerogative for AI to denounce/attack you just so you can't have a peaceful game?

 

[NKVD]

It's Shaka...It's juste the way he is. If he happens to appear in your game you just got to prepare for war not try to befriend him, oh silly you!

 

[danaphanous]

Yeah, you'd think, but consistency is not a thing for Civ V AI. Sorry buddy.

Your story does seem unreasonable, but think of it from Shaka's perspective. Unless you clicked "random personalities" Shaka is hell-bent on war. You can't remove that desire from him and I have never seen a game where he does not war with someone and quite early. By the time he gets his impi? You've got pretty much 100% chance he'll attack someone as this is his peak in advantage. You were a nice neighbor and so he spared you until impi but then it was too hard to resist. Shaka does not care that you were nice, all he cares about is whetting his new spears with blood. The only way I've found to remain friends with him is to be nice to him AND help him attack others. Either fight some wars with him against other AI or players or bribe him to keep attacking others. Both result in him liking you because he sees you are supporting his favorite past-time. Eventually after doing this a while you'll be his best bud. I survived a whole game on immortal with shaka's capital about 15 hexes away by doing this. First I encouraged him to invade Rome. Once finished he helped me kill my enemy Poland. Finally once he'd been at peace too long and I saw a worrisome amount of ships on our border (plus he kept asking me to war this or that person with him) I bribed him to attack a far-off Brazil. AI in Civ V are enslaved to their coding...shaka is coded to kill, so encourage him in that but make sure the target isn't you if you want to be his friend. If you were his only neighbor you were doomed.

You are far more likely to be his friend if you warmonger with him.

 

[docbud]

That's too bad you closed the game because of the Impi's, but I've done that a few times.

Some civs are more psycho than other and more war-prone. Were you immediate neighbors? Did you have any negative modifiers with him (such as he coveted your lands, you had purchased land near him, you were friends with some of his enemies, etc.)?

A strategy that a lot of people do is when they are still friends with an AI, they will bribe him to go to war against a different civ. That keeps the said civ off your back.

Any time Shaka is in one of my games and a close neighbor, I prepare for a blood bath.

Speaking of psychotic--last night I was playing as Mongolia and Arabia was my immediate neighbor. We were friends, trading partners, etc. And had just signed a declaration of friendship. Well--one of his stupid prophets converted one of my cities and I asked him to stop. He said he would do as he pleased, and I said "very well."

The next turn he backstabbed me and declared war and sent a swarm of camel archers. Fortunately I was ready with my Keshiks and crossbwomen (and a few musketmen). Artillery was only five turns as well...

Within 10 turns he lost his capital and one other city (his capital had about a dozen world wonders too). I lost one unit in all the mayhem.

And I only play on Prince level.

 

[Silverman6083]

That is actually quite strange because the flavor for loyalty of Shaka is pretty high I thought, but maybe it's like China. Depending on that value, some civs(Polynesia, Ethiopia) will be friends forever others(China, Greece, Spain) not so much.

 

[jlim201]

He likely backstabbed you. Certain leaders, especially war loving ones will attack you, even if it says "friendly". Zulu, Mongols, Huns as neighbours mean build a military of spears/ comp.bows asap. If you have a friend in a trade civ lik Portugal, they will ikely never backstab you.

 

[brewgod]

If Shaka is such a "Bad Ass" how many of you play as him in game. For Science it would be like playing Korea?

That said...you want a good challenge in the game and if one of these Civ's are playing against you then it makes for a great game.

Brew God

 

[docbud]

^^I played as Shaka once, and that was when BNW first came out. Just the one time.

With that being said--I've had games where Shaka never posed a threat to me (he was far enough away). Other games he was nearby, and we had a few wars. One game he was my immediate neighbor, and after a 200-turn war that never ended, I gave up on it. I like a challenge, but not a stalemate. I was spending all my time and money fighting, and not much else.

 

[Ryika]

That is actually quite strange because the flavor for loyalty of Shaka is pretty high I thought, but maybe it's like China.

His flavor for Denounciation is also quite high though. Loyalty determines the likelyhood to backstab (in the sense of "getting something out of it"), while the flavor for Denounciations can be quite random and without any real benefit for that civ - not literally, but that's pretty much what the results are. He'll even denounce a player when he's got a lot of green modifiers and only a single dark red one. But I guess that's okay - he's Shaka after all... that's what he always was like in Civ, although it's probably not historically accurate.

Best way of defeating Shaka... go for him early on. You don't have to kill him, but keep him in his territory, kill his units and keep him small. He's got a high flavor for melee units, so a few archers will literally prevent him from doing anything, while you can expand and get a tech lead. If you let him grow as your neighbor, you're going to have a problem once he reaches Impis.

 

[Navelgazer]

Shaka is extremely loyal if you can actually become true friends with him, but that's a massive challenge all its own and isn't going to happen if he's an immediate neighbor.

 

[TamirLenk]

Shaka is nuts. I've had several games where my scout finds his territory at the other end of the map, and his diplo mods immediately show a bold "covets lands you own." Mind you, he's never seen my lands because his units haven't been anywhere near me, but he must have them anyway.

 

[LoneRebel]

The fact that he backstabbed you should be known to all the other civs that have met you two, and they should dislike him for it in the future. Which could help you, assuming you actually manage to survive this war, that is. I'd never put all my eggs in one basket by counting only on befriending him; I'd have built my military up at the same time.

 

[Dr. D]

I'm guessing your military strength was low. The stronger your military is, the less likely it should be for Shaka to turn on you.

 

[Uzael36]

Yeah, you'd think, but consistency is not a thing for Civ V AI. Sorry buddy.

That does appear pretty consistent with Shaka.

He does appear to respect military strength, so you just have to build an army, or expect him to attack. The funny thing is, you can take cities off him and negotiate peace, and he'll ask to befriend you after, as you've shown your power to them, they'll behave until you let your military fall a part.

 

[docbud]

I hate Shaka. I just started a game, and I am playing as India.

Met Shaka on turn 7, got denounced on turn 8, and then he insulted me on turn 9.

No idea where he is yet, but he's close.

I think I'm gonna be in an early war with him. He's definitely hostile.

 

[DrakenKin]

Shaka is nuts. I've had several games where my scout finds his territory at the other end of the map, and his diplo mods immediately show a bold "covets lands you own." Mind you, he's never seen my lands because his units haven't been anywhere near me, but he must have them anyway.

It's true, happened to me a couple of times.

I think the way it works is that he must have a target, someone he plans to kill next. If he only met you so far, you'r it. If you're the weakest target, you're it. If you're close, you're it. So what I usually do is ensure he has a tastier target than me. Bribing someone to DOW shaka will ensure that he hates that person more than you and will prefer going for it. I don't think bribing shaka to war the other AI works as well as the other way around.

 

[Mutineer]

Good idea is to look on border, see any impy around bribe him to attack some one else. Because you had good relationship he will do it very cheap, like 50 gold.

You need just watch out and pay little tribute by you own initiative.

 

[kb27787]

sounds like he was bribed by someone else who secretly hates you (his loyalty rating is among the highest); or........ did you have any red modifiers with him? Usually no AI except for the most insidious ones (looking at you Dido, Boudicca...) will denounce a friend if there is no reason to. (check and see what major red mods you have... perhaps you befriended an enemy of his)

 

[BigChiefLizzy]

Be careful who you do bribe him to attack; if possible make sure it's someone reasonably strong. Otherwise he might destroy them in 10 turns and then turn his attention back to you.

Sometimes even then things can go horribly wrong

One game with him as a next door neighbor I bribed him to attack Montezuma, after Shaka started the attack I bribed Alexander to attack Shaka, waited 10 turns and declared war on Shaka myself, as he bound to have his hands full now right?

A few turns after I declared Monty lost his capital to Shaka, ten turns after that Alexander lost his, then his last city a few turns later. And hordes of highly promoted Impis suddenly come into view...

 

[NASAROG]

At least he didn't nuke you as Gandhi, but seriously, the Diplomacy in this game is one of the better ones, and it still sucks something awful and it's super easy to game.