Help with AI behavior prediction: Vassalization.

[Somebody613]

Like, what exactly makes you look "tasty" as a Liege?
I still remember games where tons of AIs around me outright jumped to become my vassals, but my current game is barely showing it.
I'm literally a whole Era ahead of everyone, have 4 times their score and 5 times their cities, and fluctuate my army between stronger or weaker than some of them as a test.
Nothing works.
They do vassalize each other here and there, sometimes multiple times, but I barely made a single vassal, while everyone else just ignores me.
Friends, foes, allies - everyone.
So, again, what are the vassalization's built-in TRIGGER REQUIREMENTS, please?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't play with this option and haven't done much with its AI so don't really know. However, I don't play with it simply because it allows players losing at war to vassalize to another player during the war and by so doing suddenly force you into a war with another foe, which tends to then be a domino effect that makes the first war the last war in the game if you carry it through since the foes rarely wish to surrender to peace unless they can't get a big brother to defend them and no player seems to think it's a bad idea to join a war if they can get a vassal for free out of doing so, even if they can clearly do the math and see they're going to die by accepting such a deal. IMO, it just forces games to end faster. I have a similar problem with tech trading in that the game has a great pace until suddenly players can trade techs then it's a massive trading race where effectively the entire globe is attacking the tech tree as a team with only a few falling out and falling behind and very little further research overlap, especially in a mostly human player game where you can see or ask what others are researching so you don't overlap efforts. So at the point you can trade, it's almost like the world becomes one nation tearing through the tree at a 10x rate.

 

[Somebody613]

I don't play with this option and haven't done much with its AI so don't really know. However, I don't play with it simply because it allows players losing at war to vassalize to another player during the war and by so doing suddenly force you into a war with another foe, which tends to then be a domino effect that makes the first war the last war in the game if you carry it through since the foes rarely wish to surrender to peace unless they can't get a big brother to defend them and no player seems to think it's a bad idea to join a war if they can get a vassal for free out of doing so, even if they can clearly do the math and see they're going to die by accepting such a deal. IMO, it just forces games to end faster. I have a similar problem with tech trading in that the game has a great pace until suddenly players can trade techs then it's a massive trading race where effectively the entire globe is attacking the tech tree as a team with only a few falling out and falling behind and very little further research overlap, especially in a mostly human player game where you can see or ask what others are researching so you don't overlap efforts. So at the point you can trade, it's almost like the world becomes one nation tearing through the tree at a 10x rate.

Ah, the funky effect of the HUMAN players. Nah, I always only play with AIs - hence my question about PROGRAMMED vassalization, not MANUAL one.
And I tend to play "easy games", which means I'm almost always Top 1, especially by the time vassalization becomes a thing.
It just annoys me that I can't find out a viable tactic to FORCE clearly weaker AIs into vassalization, no matter how much more advanced I am in comparison.
It's obviously NOT the correct mechanic, but I see it differently from my POV (a stronger Liege means a higher Vassal's security), so I'm absolutely CONFUSED right now.
I hope someone will actually answer this, though.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm not talking much about the vassal system where human players are concerned. But I don't know the answer you're looking for unfortunately.

 

[Somebody613]

I'm not talking much about the vassal system where human players are concerned. But I don't know the answer you're looking for unfortunately.

Who might know it then?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I might inquire on the discord server - Toffer and Flabbert may know more. We've got Alberts and Flabbert doing some REALLY deep systems upgrades at the moment, not so much game stuff. But Toffer's got a bit more game focus back of late. I'm sorry to be ignorant of the vassal system but that's where I'm at with it largely. Just to update on my situation, I'm starting to catch fire a bit here with my own business and since that business is all about growing businesses, finding the time to apply my own systems to not only grow other's businesses but also my OWN will likely have a rapidly multiplicative effect and I'm getting a good reputation and finally starting to bring onboard some help, even if it is just contracted at the moment. That will then also enable me to apply all the same pathways to promoting anything... like a game. Furthermore I'm trying to establish it so that I don't just have a me doing business but a whole brand with people handling things so that I can free myself to get back to this and more projects like it. There's hope for a very bright future right now for C2C and more.

 

[Somebody613]

I might inquire on the discord server - Toffer and Flabbert may know more. We've got Alberts and Flabbert doing some REALLY deep systems upgrades at the moment, not so much game stuff. But Toffer's got a bit more game focus back of late. I'm sorry to be ignorant of the vassal system but that's where I'm at with it largely. Just to update on my situation, I'm starting to catch fire a bit here with my own business and since that business is all about growing businesses, finding the time to apply my own systems to not only grow other's businesses but also my OWN will likely have a rapidly multiplicative effect and I'm getting a good reputation and finally starting to bring onboard some help, even if it is just contracted at the moment. That will then also enable me to apply all the same pathways to promoting anything... like a game. Furthermore I'm trying to establish it so that I don't just have a me doing business but a whole brand with people handling things so that I can free myself to get back to this and more projects like it. There's hope for a very bright future right now for C2C and more.

Good luck with Real Life Stuff, dude.
That's WAY more important, obviously.
As of my question, let's hope someone eventually answers it, though it's a bit weird that such a seemingly straightforward question made people confused.
Not juts you - I see there's dozens of views of the thread, yet nobody even tries replying.
That's... weird, lol.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not many 'know' any more than you might - just guessing as players. TBH I had always found the same issue a bit of a nuisance too in that I could never really figure out what they wanted for vassal arrangements. My conclusion from play alone was they just don't want that deal with anyone unless they're getting destroyed so it's only used as a system of running and hiding behind a greater protector which only happens as an expression of an admission of defeat. If the system only allowed them to, during war, vassalize under the player beating them in that war, then it would've worked as a system of earned subdual, which I would've been cool with.

One further thing I can say on that though is that I don't think we've customized the AI in that regard much so open forum comments on it may still hold for C2C.

 

[Somebody613]

Well, thanks anyways.
Obviously, the easiest way to FORCIBLY vassalize, is to take one or two of their cities, then ask for Capitulation.
It works about 90% of times.
But I'm now running a PEACEFUL game test, where I simply spread around via cultural assimilation (on a Duel map of 40 civs, lol), so I literally NEVER start (or fight) a war.
Or use Spies, of course, otherwise I'd just "buy" the entire map in no time - but it's not my current testing GOAL.
Thus, my goal is to peacefully vassalize, and so far only one single AI jumped the offer (and did so immediately after I was able to do it) - and did it on their own will, mind you.
This is simultaneously happening with them waging TONS of wars on each other, including splitting civs into new ones, and rather active vassalization between themselves.
Just NEVER to me, somehow.
Note that I'm Top ONE civ by a margin of x4 in both score and in cities, though my army strength is average (higher than some, lower than others).
I literally don't see how I could become "more tasty as a Liege" in this situation, yet they keep vassalizing each other all the time (and not only via wars, it seems).
This is... annoying, to say it very mildly.

 

[Thunderbrd]

yeah... it could certainly be improved on! A while back someone proposed quite a bit of modding regarding this stuff, even presented some coding, but I was really just getting started so wasn't in a position to implement. I think he had a number of options and so on that could have been implemented. At some point will have to go back and further evaluate what his plans and code would accomplish - the problem was we were already way too clear of the standard dll to implement easily.