[BTS] Hesha's Random Questions

[6K Man]

Re corporations – there is lots of stuff out there on them, but what it comes down to is a choice between:

1. Corporations + Free Market. Best Corps tend to be Sushi and Mining, with Cereal Mills a fallback if you can’t get Sushi or are on Pangea. Others are niche only. Corporations let you give a super-boost to your cities (which, besides the obvious, can help with certain victory conditions) or (for the bad corps) fleece the AIs out of branch fees. The downside is that they’re very labour intensive for the player – build exec, move exec, repeat, build x Banks and then Wall Street in HQ, build Courthouse in every branch city.
2. State Property. Super-Workshops and Super-Watermills, 10% production bonus, and you can ignore maintenance + Courthouses. Super easy to use.

 

[Hesha]

Question: I came across Ziggurats recently. I know that CHs aren't usually built in many cities, but I am wondering... Ziggurats are available sooner and only cost 3/4 of the price. If you're ORG (is it ORG for CHs?) it's even cheaper (unrestricted leaders required, of course). Do you reckon Ziggurats (or Rathauses for that matter) warrent a change in strategy, i.e. building more cities and putting Ziggurats / Rathauses in them?

 

[sampsa]

Well, I don't like them much. Maybe on deity if you plan to steal some techs, but on lower levels they don't offer enough bang for buck I think. Perhaps if the game is very long? ORG makes a difference, then they are not bad, especially the special ones that you mention.

 

[Hesha]

Well, I don't like them much. Maybe on deity if you plan to steal some techs, but on lower levels they don't offer enough bang for buck I think. Perhaps if the game is very long? ORG makes a difference, then they are not bad, especially the special ones that you mention.

Good that you mention that about long games. I'm actually planning to play at a slower game speed, going forward. I think technologies have too short a life-span. I mean... how long can you use Rifles before the opponent has Infantry? Doesn't seem like more than 20-30 turns. I think that's too little.

 

[sampsa]

Well, I don't think CHs are better on slower speeds. Units are better, buildings are worse. I don't recommend slower speeds.

 

[Hesha]

Well, I don't think CHs are better on slower speeds. Units are better, buildings are worse. I don't recommend slower speeds.

Why is that?

 

[sampsa]

Why are units better and buildings worse? Because units move effectively at a higher speed. Why don't I recommend slower speeds? Because I think human has a way too big advantage over AI.

 

[Hesha]

Why are units better and buildings worse? Because units move effectively at a higher speed. Why don't I recommend slower speeds? Because I think human has a way too big advantage over AI.

Only if ahead. If you're behin, the AI is helped. All slower speed does is it keeps tech advantages for longer, right? Or do you mean it benefits players of AI, because micro-managing the cities has a bigger impact? I'd counter-balance it by playing a higher difficulty, so I think it should still be okay.

 

[sampsa]

Only if ahead. If you're behin, the AI is helped

I don't understand what you mean. AI is still extremely stupid, while human has a huge advantage in war.

All slower speed does is it keeps tech advantages for longer, right?

I think "Because units move effectively at a higher speed" is way more exact way of putting it.

I'd counter-balance it by playing a higher difficulty, so I think it should still be okay.

Good idea.

 

[rah]

State Property. Super-Workshops and Super-Watermills, 10% production bonus, and you can ignore maintenance + Courthouses. Super easy to use.

For the win. By the time they're available, I'm usually too busy doing something else and can't be bothered.
(which is also the main reason I play on imm instead of Diety. too much micro, and while interesting, not the reason I'm playing)

 

[Hesha]

Is there a way to get rid of a vassal? I'm like... half a dozen tiles away from winning my first IMM victory via Domination and stupidly subjugated Frederick. How, if I took even one of his cities, I'd win... the alternative is going up against high-tech Mansa with his two vassals, but that's be a slog-fest. I could wait another 30ish turns until I have a nuclear stockpile and do it that way, but I'd rather with sooner than that.

I'm at 62.2% of Land (and like, 80% of pop or something ridiculous like that), so I guess 1.8% of Land is about 6 tiles or so on this high water standard size fractal map.

And before the obvious answer is given: He already gives me all his resources.

 

[Major Tom]

You can’t. But how hard can it be to conquer a city or two from another AI now? No reason waiting for nukes.

 

[Hesha]

You were right. The thing is, the world was divided in two. Mansa had two vassals, Shaka and Joao and I had two vassals Izzy and Freddy. Both Shake and Izzy had only one city left, both Freddy and Joao has basically their whole former empires intact, i.e. 3-4 cities. Mansa was ahead of me in some tech, he hat tanks, SAM inf, Para, Marines... I had only Artillery and Infantry. So I thought it's not going to work out. But it did. I attacked Joao, took two coastal cities, then took out Shaka, collapsing his culture. That tipped the balance.

I was wasting time on the UN, because I wasn't aware that you can't diplo-win any longer when there are only two free civs left (vassals don't count). Would have been funny, because I had 500 votes all by myself vs. 153 for Mansa. I guess that's because of the massive advantage I had in terms of pop.

I'm really confused about this game, though. It was my first victory on IMM and it was... ridiculously easy. I started totally isolated as Louis of France, managed to build both the GLH (waste of time until Optics, although I found a small tundra island that I could settle for 2 cities via culture-coasting) and Mids. But I didn't play at my best - not by a long shot. I moved my settler, probably to a worse location, I probably messed up the GAs, picked wrong civics a few time (worst offender was triggering my second GA to switch to Nationhood only to end up not drafting a single unit o.O) I definitely didn't micro my cities after 1000 AD, noticed that the automatic citizen allocations appoints gazillions of spy specialists for some reason so... it's really beyond me how I managed to absolutely dominate this map for the final 1000 years of the game. I've attached the first and last save, in case anyone is interested!

My guess is that IND is just really good. Having those two wonders early on (and then forgetting about wonders until Kremlin) is pretty cool and gives you a serious boost all throughout the game. I wish you could keept Slavery for longer, the idea of building Globe Theatre in a city with 4 seafood and just whipping the crap out if it is so appealing, but alas, those stupid AI bastards tech Democracy so bloody early and switch to this worthless Emancipation nonsense like clockwork...

Oh, this was on Epic speed. Forgot to mention that. I think I like Epic better.

 

[Winth]

it's really beyond me how I managed to absolutely dominate this map for the final 1000 years of the game. I've attached the first and last save, in case anyone is interested!

Can't look at the save, but even on Emperor / Immortal, which used to be really daunting to me, I sometimes (and recently, somewhat often) get games that, by luck of the draw and phases of the moon, have the AI tech rate progress at an insanely slow pace. I'm talking really late wonder dates, player casually winning Liberalism and window shopping for juicy techs, and funding 100% tech rate by selling Literature for an AI's Chichen Itza failgold in like 1200 AD. Sometimes the AIs wear themselves down through warfare or are poor techers in general, or perhaps refuse to trade each other along religious lines. I also think that the player gaining certain wonders slows down the overall tech rate for the AIs (I believe this factor is one of the reasons for Obsolete's Wonder Economy being somewhat viable on Deity). You were isolated from the AI, so it's possible that there was no one to speed the tech pace across the world, as players tend to do by selling outdated techs for money. You took GLH and Pyramids, which are potential sources of commerce (although if Pyramids falls to a HR / Police State / Universal Suffrage fan, this isn't as potent).

In fact, I'm notoriously horrible at micromanaging (I know the basic principles, but lack patience) and tend to snooze into gross inefficiency, and my last few games had remarkable mid-game edge on most technology against the AI. You should probably watch out for the kind of game where you stumble into a Catherine / Justinian / Joao (or some other moderate warmonger / techer, which in my experience tend to be the strongest AIs) with 15 cities and a peace vassaled Qin trading them techs.

 

[Hesha]

Can't look at the save,

Sorry about that. I played that game with BUG as a Mod, because I hadn't planned to upload the files.

 

[earthy]

Is there a way to get rid of a vassal?

I don't know exactly how it works, but if you demand every single resource they have it sometimes pisses them off enough to split free. The first time they'll give in if they're really weak, but the second or third time they'll say no(refusal means war), and you can wipe them out.

 

[lymond]

^^^this is true, and to clarify, you will be at war

 

[Anysense]

I was wasting time on the UN, because I wasn't aware that you can't diplo-win any longer when there are only two free civs left (vassals don't count).

You can. But if you have more than 62% of votes by yourself the election won't come up. This can be remedied by creating colonies or simply giving away cities.

 

[Hesha]

I don't know exactly how it works, but if you demand every single resource they have it sometimes pisses them off enough to split free. The first time they'll give in if they're really weak, but the second or third time they'll say no(refusal means war), and you can wipe them out.

I don't think that is quite how it works. I have instances where a brand new vassal, who I had crushed completely (one city left, no units left in it) attacked me upon my first demand (for all his stuff) and I've had strong vassals lay there and take it even when I took all three copies of the resources they had. What I did observe is that - at least in some cases, they will not give you oil. I vassalised Freddy in a previous game and now matter what I did, when I demanded oil, he would attack - but I could take all his other stuff.

^^^this is true, and to clarify, you will be at war

Yes, thank you That wouldn't have been an issue And this is good, too, by the way. Because if you weren't at war, the little bastards would go running to whatever AI they like best and become there little pet.

You can. But if you have more than 62% of votes by yourself the election won't come up. This can be remedied by creating colonies or simply giving away cities.

This is brilliant, I should have done that. Colonies love you at the beginning, so they'd be guaranteed votes!

 

[Anysense]

Your vassals will always vote for you regardless of their attitude, as long as you are eligible. I don't know what will happen if one of them is eligible, though.