High difficulties force me to settle new cities before improving luxuries

[Athenaeum]

This is a problem that has recently begun to occur all the time where it had not often occurred before.

I play on Immortal, and every file I have recently started, the AI's started settling and taking up the good land around me REALLY, REALLY early. On a file I started not too long ago, and AI had 3 cities up by turn 15.

I have been desperately trying to compete with this (I play on quick pace by the way).

In response to this, I began settling on top of luxuries - especially mining luxuries such as gold and silver because theyre usually located on hills - because I could hardly make a worker and improve a luxury in time.

Recently I have started building settlers around turn 10, even when my city is sometimes population 2.

The city-states usually don't have workers until around turn 15 or 20, and the only way I can fit a worker into this build order is if I only build one scout, and skip early monument and shrine.


Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do about this?

 

[Kriogen]

...
Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do about this?

Build combat units (even scouts will do) and abduct AI settlers. Gives you worker(s) and more time to settle.

City states are slow with workers (plus I want CS to be my friend/ally for happy faces), but other AI is not. They build workers and settlers fast.

 

[shadowevil1996]

I find that the AI snowballs Quick game pace really fast, and wins almost always on it. Turning it on Standard seem to be more reasonable for me at least and it makes you catch to the AI better.

 

[Athenaeum]

The AI guards its settlers and workers with warriors almost all the time. I hardly ever have a chance to swoop in and steal a worker without getting attacked by warriors and their city, which is likely to kill the unit I used to worker-steal.

 

[Kriogen]

You capture settler while its traveling to where it wants to settle. If it has a guard, you kill the guard also.

If you can't kill guard, you atleast 'body block' it. AI will try to go around, you body block again. At one point AI will go bored and go somewhere else. Idea is that AI doesn't settle in your face.

That 'in transit' is the best oportunity. Also means you have to patrol alot, park a scout on a hill.

I'm not saying its easy. It's actually damn hard. Im still practicing this mini game, but its betting better.

 

[docbud]

It is very frustrating. And sometimes the body-blocking just doesn't work.

In fact I had a game last night (Pangea map) and both Siam and the Netherlands sent escorted settlers to settle in my face. Couldn't do diddly about it with only one warrior.

 

[Kriogen]

Ah, Dutch. Those that first ask for DoF so you would not attack their settler as that would give you huge diplo penalty.

 

[beetle]

I play on quick pace by the way.

Just know that makes the game considerably more difficult. Immortal Quick is probably as challenging as Deity on standard pace.

 

[docbud]

Ah, Dutch. Those that first ask for DoF so you would not attack their settler as that would give you huge diplo penalty.

Which by the way is exactly what transpired. We had the DOF, then Siam and the Dutch sent their settlers. Since the Dutch were about to gobble up the salt resources right next to me, I said to heck with the DOF.
It all backfired on me. He was still able to settle and so was Siam.

 

[beetle]

It is very frustrating. And sometimes the body-blocking just doesn't work.

Yes, it is hard to pull off that early in the game when you have so few units. But two scouts and your warrior should be able to kill an escort on one turn. The AI is quite likely to plant the settler if you take more than a single turn to kill the escort. I try to attack the stack close to another city -- so that planting is not an option for the AI.

I said to heck with the DOF.

Which spoils diplo with all the AIs for the rest of the game. Quite a nasty trap. Early DOWs have almost no diplo consequences. DOW during a DOF and you are on your own for the rest of the game. An early DOF request is the AI baiting you -- because the AI plans to forward settle you. Live and learn.

 

[docbud]

^^Unfortunately, I only had my one warrior. My scout was too far away to do anything.

And you're right about that DOW with DOF consequences. And usually I don't make DOFs that early, but I figured Siam and the Dutch had already seen my capital and stuff. I'll keep this episode in mind for the next time they pull this stunt on me.

Oh--I ended up losing the game anyway (actually I quit). Siam got big fast and kept me in a constant state of war. I was playing as Washington and rushed minutemen. But he had his crazy elephants and had a DOF with a CS who was giving him impis. My minutemen did great and got lots of experience, but the nonstop war ruined my economy and teching. Then he had a ton of CS allies and was running the World Congress. And he banned my salt luxury (which I had a ton of).

Thank God I have an early save of the game and I'm going to play it again sometime and try to take him out early.

 

[beetle]

Unfortunately, I only had my one warrior. My scout was too far away to do anything.

I feel your pain. And warrior plus only one scout prolly cannot make the kill quick enough. Archers are great if you have them, but I am just saying that a player can improvise with just the units on hand. You also have to catch the AI pair in the open, not in forest or on a hill. In my experience, there is not usually much warning that an AI is going to pull this trick.

 

[wayneb64]

I play Immortal Quick as well, and only my current game I think (maybe a few more) I was able to get my starting cities setup without a reload to stop their settler. Keeping your scouts in the vicinity is the challenge as you want to get as many ruins as possible and explore the land. Workers are generally not as stealable on quick in my opinion. Keeping their settler back tracking in rough terrain is the best you can do and building an archer or two to me seems wiser than trying to rush a settler. Those archers will let you kill their escort.

 

[docbud]

Good points, beetle and wayneb64. What sucks though is when you attack the escort, and when you are all done, the settler just moves over a tile and settles in place. It probably wanted to settle a tile or two over more, but it took what it could get. And then that city gets to bombard your units.

Oh well--it's part of the game.

p.s. I play epic speed

 

[beetle]

What sucks though is when you attack the escort, and when you are all done, the settler just moves over a tile and settles in place. It probably wanted to settle a tile or two over more, but it took what it could get. And then that city gets to bombard your units.

Yes, that is the pattern. If you have two archers, then treat the situation just like you would with raging barbs: kill and take the camp on the same turn. If you can't do that, better to wait one more turn and try again. The settler is much less likely to plant if the escort is (even just barely) alive.

When I forget and prematurely sign a DOF, the nearby civ is likely to use unescorted settlers. Those can often be steered into barbs.

 

[CraigMak]

FYI: what you are doing is in fact usually very good play. 2 or 3 popping a settler after you get your shrine up is standard play in decent MP games. If you don't expand your neighbor will. Although the AI does it in unrealistic fashion on Deity and Immortal levels. Expanding on top of luxuries is always good because it saves worker time. As long as the spot isn't considerably worse than not settling on the luxury.

I was not aware that the game pace effected difficulty. I have always played on quick speed. Are you telling me that Deity on standard pace will be a walk in the park if I can win on quick pace?

 

[Dushku]

Establishing your borders is more important that staying in positive happiness. Just make sure you're also working towards improving that happiness so you stay under for as short a time as possible.

 

[Athenaeum]

Just know that makes the game considerably more difficult. Immortal Quick is probably as challenging as Deity on standard pace.

Who all would agree with this comment?

I thought that slower game paces gave more advantage to military strategies, because unit movement stayed constant while city production slowed. I thought that slower game pace would actually make things harder in terms of competing against difficult AI's.

 

[Athenaeum]

Expanding on top of luxuries is always good because it saves worker time. As long as the spot isn't considerably worse than not settling on the luxury.

The exactly reason why this is sometimes a problem for me is because the luxury tile is not surrounded by good terrain, or there is a far more optimal expand a couple of tiles away from the luxury. In these instances what do you do? Rush to settle the luxury so you get the expand? Or wait for the optimal expand but risk not getting it at all?

 

[Athenaeum]

Yes, that is the pattern. If you have two archers, then treat the situation just like you would with raging barbs: kill and take the camp on the same turn. If you can't do that, better to wait one more turn and try again. The settler is much less likely to plant if the escort is (even just barely) alive.

When I forget and prematurely sign a DOF, the nearby civ is likely to use unescorted settlers. Those can often be steered into barbs.

You bring up something I would like to discuss further - using scouts for alternative purposes other than scouting.

This is one reason why I hate worker stealing from city-states - the CS usually build workers at really unpredictable times, so you will have your scout waiting at their border for several turns, just wasting time. He could be doing more scouting during that time.


Same thing with settler blocking - all that time your scout spends following a settler around to block it, you're missing out on all that exploration. Is it really worth it? Or better yet, is there a better way to keep the AI (or human) from settling in your face?