Historical Game 1: Gilgamesh

[punctuator]

Hi everyone,

I've lurked here occasionally, but until participating in a recent Noble's Challenge game I haven't really been a part of the civ fanatics community. I'd like to change that.

I've been reading Sisiutil's old ALC game threads, and I've been thinking that posting a similar game or series of games would be a big help to me. I feel I'm roughly at the level Sisiutil was when he began posting (I win pretty regularly on Prince). Now, I know that Civ 4 has been around for a while, and there won't be nearly as much community interest in figuring out strategy. That's ok---my biggest weakness is that I get impatient and don't plan ahead, and I think it will benefit me to stop and think even without a ton of brainstorming from the community. But feel free to chime in!

To make things more interesting, I'm going to have a theme. I don't know how long I'll keep it up, but I want to try playing different leaders in rough chronological order. I'll also choose my opponents, so that they're from roughly the same historical period (not necessarily geographically promixate, though). In general I'll probably make some decisions in keeping with my historical theme, but really this is a learning exercise for me, so I'm not primarily role-playing, here.

That means I'll be playing Gilgamesh of Sumeria for my first game.

Gilgamesh
History: Gilgamesh was the fifth king in the first dynasty of Uruk, and is immortalized in perhaps the oldest written story known to human history, the Epic of Gilgamesh. He reigned for 126 years, according to the Sumerian King List, circa 2500 BC. Impressive!! Hopefully, I'll last longer than that in this game.
Game traits: Creative, Protective
Starting techs: Agriculture, Wheel
Unique Unit: Vulture (stong axeman with lower melee bonus)
Unique Building Ziggurat (cheap courthouse)

Here are the game settings:

I went with Pangaea and low seas because Gilgamesh could only dream of other continents. For opponents I chose the most ancient leaders the game has to offer (without duplicating civs). Tropical climate just for fun---to be honest, I don't know exactly how that affects the map script.

Round 0: 4000 BC


I'm clearly on the southern edge of the continent. I count three visible forested grassland hills and one forested plains hill if I settle in place. I have lots of fresh water and mostly grassland under those trees. With that and three food resources, this city could be a great GP farm, and it should have good early production.

Settling 1E (where the warrior is) looks attractive to me. I'd lose the plains hill, but I'd swap a plains tile for grassland. My plan is to send the warrior NE to see what's there.

Since I start with Agriculture, I'd like to beeline Bronze Working and get chopping with an early Worker, but I'm worried he won't have enough to do after farming that Corn---BW won't be done yet, since I have no commerce. So I'm thinking initial build will be Warrior > Worker. Or maybe Warrior > Warrior > Worker? I want to get exploration going and I am not that anxious to get a Worker out until I have both BW and Fishing, so I can chop a couple of Work Boats before building my first Settler.

I've attached the save, but please don't spoil it for me.

 

[Turin Turumarth]

The Gilgamesh in the epic was a badass. Hopefully this game we will dominate like the epic. And, of course, Star Trek must be mentioned:

Gilgamesh, a king. Gilgamesh, a king at Uruk. He tormented his subjects. He made them angry. They cried out aloud: "Send us a companion for our king! Spare us from his madness!" Enkidu, a wild man from the forest, entered the city. They fought in the temple. They fought in the streets. Gilgamesh defeated Enkidu. They became great friends. Gilgamesh and Enkidu at Uruk.

Picard.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

The Gilgamesh in the epic was a badass. Hopefully this game we will dominate like the epic. And, of course, Star Trek must be mentioned:

Picard.

He was a pretty big jerk, also a homosexual.

Supposedly that statue of him holding a lion like we would hold a house cat is to scale, he was that gigantic.

Imagine a giant gay dude stalking around your neighborhood, I think i'd ask the gods for help too.

 

[Benginal]

Great idea for a series. It's a lot of work, prepare yourself.

I'd settle in place since I'm pretty sure that plains tile to your settler's east is going to have either copper or iron. You still only have 1 + 2/3 + 2/3 resources visible, so you're owed a few more. I'd build a worker first for sure while researching mining and bronze working. Then you can research fishing and chop out a quick workboat or two.

Also, since you're going in historical order you will be playing with these same 7 civs on the map 7 times in a row, no? I think that's actually alright as we'll get a chance to get to know all of them.

 

[Trystero]

Where the warrior is standing looks like the only land tile in the BFC without trees on it (actually there might be another grassland tile 2W of the settler). I'd be worried there was a strategic resource located there. There are plenty of grassland tiles under the trees. Also moving 1E loses a land tile.

You have two seafood resources for food and a little commerce (too bad the fish isn't coastal). I would tech Fishing first while partially building a Worker, then switch to a WB when fishing is done, and then back to the worker. The commerce from the crabs would help with researching BW. (edit: probably better to hook up the fish, which is 5 food, 1 commerce)

This looks like a MapFinder save (requires BUFFY). If so, I'm curious as to why you chose a coastal start for Gilgamesh.

edit: x-post with Benginal.

edit2: I tried a test: Researching Fishing first and partially building the worker, then teching Mining > BW gets a second high food tile hooked up sooner, so I'm inclined to stick with my original recommendation.

 

[Turin Turumarth]

Wow, absolute zero, I apparently didn't fully understand the epic when I read it.

 

[punctuator]

@Benginal

Also, since you're going in historical order you will be playing with these same 7 civs on the map 7 times in a row, no? I think that's actually alright as we'll get a chance to get to know all of them.

Not necessarily; there are two Egyptian, two Greek, and two Persian leaders all from roughly the same time period, so I will probably switch it up between them. I imagine I'll use the same group for Hammurabi, but then also as we move up in time we can shed Gilgamesh and other oldsters for newer blood. But yes, I will be getting to know these guys very well.

@Trystero

You have two seafood resources for food and a little commerce (too bad the fish isn't coastal). I would tech Fishing first while partially building a Worker, then switch to a WB when fishing is done, and then back to the worker. The commerce from the crabs would help with researching BW. (edit: probably better to hook up the fish, which is 5 food, 1 commerce)

Good suggestion, I like it.

This looks like a MapFinder save (requires BUFFY). If so, I'm curious as to why you chose a coastal start for Gilgamesh.

I'm not sure what you mean by MapFinder. I use BUFFY just for the UI improvements, and I didn't choose a coastal start--that's just what it gave me. I went with the first map (actually I restarted once, because I screwed up the settings by accident---it's a shame too, the first start was sick).

 

[punctuator]

Where the warrior is standing looks like the only land tile in the BFC without trees on it (actually there might be another grassland tile 2W of the settler). I'd be worried there was a strategic resource located there. There are plenty of grassland tiles under the trees. Also moving 1E loses a land tile.

I am also worried about finding a strategic resource on that plains tile, and losing some production. And for some reason I was failing to count that -1 land tile. However! Look what my warrior found when he moved NE:



There's Deer in the BFC if I move 1E, for a total of four food resources in the capital. It does seem like I might hurt my production (although the Deer is 2 hammers as well as food). However, I think I'll find better production sites, and so I'm going to pursue this as a science/GP city. So I've decided to settle on the plains tile.

I also think I see coast off to the east there, so if my capital doesn't use that Deer I don't think any other city will.

By the way, check out that suspicious looking clearing in the forest to the west. Iron, maybe? So if something pops up there, I've lost it in my capital's BFC, but at least another city will be able to work it.

The next question is whether Deer changes my build order. I think not; that 2F2H tile will just make my boats come out much faster. So I'm still going to go partial Worker while researching Fishing, then Work Boat and finish Worker while researching Mining/BW.

A bit of scouting reveals that my start is more peninsular than I would have guessed. I popped a hut for some gold and headed west with my warrior. One more hut gave me some minor gold, a lion gave me a scare, and I found some Stone north of the capital. I also found Hammurabi, just a little ways to the north, with some Gold in his capital. Might be a good candidate for a Vulture rush if I can get fast Copper. Actually, I was going to stop once I found Hammurabi and have a look at the map, but I think I'll explore a few more turns until BW is done.

A couple of turns in I met one of Brennus' scouts coming around Babylon, and on the next turn Asoka's warrior showed up from the west.

A little more scouting and I discover Brennus' capital to the west. It's just as close as Babylon.

It's currently 3000 BC, and here's the lay of the land:


As you can see, our fears were realized, and Uruk is right on top of Copper! That will allow for fast Vultures, but not as fast as if I could mine it. My 2nd work boat will be done in 3 turns, at which point I think it will be time to chop out a few Vultures.

I've marked where I'm tentatively thinking of putting my second city. That stupid mountain is in the place where I'd like it to go. The land is pretty brown, but there are two food resources and I can grab stone (although I kind of hate stone, because it makes those early wonders too tempting). I'm not totally sold on this location, though. One thing I notice is that the 2nd copper between me and Hammurabi is in an awkward spot; I don't see how to build a good city to work it. There's decent grassland nearby, but no food resources. I don't really see any stellar city locations. I suppose it's a good thing there are a couple nearby civs to rush with Vultures.

So here are the main decision points right now:
1. What do I research next? Hunting to hook up that Deer and unlock Archery? My worker is going to be busy chopping and building mines for a bit. Pottery so I can chop a granary and whip up an army? Should I start beelining for some advanced techs, since I don't have immediate need of Worker techs?
2. Do I want to build a second city? If so, where? Or would it be smarter to just build Vultures and try to take out Hammurabi ASAP? Or would Brennus be a smarter target to rush (no Aggressive)?

 

[punctuator]

Hmm, come to think of it, the real reason to be scared of rushing Hammurabi is his UU. On Prince, the AI doesn't start with any archers and doesn't start with Archery. Hammurabi has obviously already researched fishing (I can see his improved clams). But he could well have gone for Hunting/Archery after that. In any case, it'll be hard to catch him Bowman-less, but he might not have many. If I pillage his production tiles I ought to be able to overcome his Bowmen, but it might be easier and faster to go after Brennus.

 

[CreeDakota]

how about setteling right on the stone?

and brennus would make a better rush target since hammy has bowmen..

 

[cas]

I'm shadowing this just to improve my REX -> space VC skills, but I'll give you my thoughts based on what you can see right now.

1) chop/whip 2 vultures and rush Hammy before he gets bowman. Bowman +50% versus melee. Then probably add a 3rd vulture and take out Celts. 3rd vulture may or may not be necessary depending on Brennus tech path and how fast you get there.

2) second city should go directly on the stone. Settling on it saves worker turns and gives you wheat + cow + copper in the BFC. decent 4-5 pop production city and build Gwall in it first. low seas and you are already talking about taking out 2 AI, which will leave you spread out a bit. Prince barbs aren't bad, but can be a nuissance. With stone, Gwall pays for itself, IMHO.

3) build GLH with mostly 2pop timed whips for maximum hammer overflow and chops in the capital. your capital is coastal. Hammy is coastal. Stone city would be coastal. City to the west with the pig/wheat could be coastal. And that's just in the small area you can see. Tropical means large jungle swath in the middle of the land, so coastal cities > land cities early with GLH and food. (in general).

4) going for GLH = sailing + masonary. then pottery.

5) worker steal from hammy on the gold will probably be more productive than scouting more with your warrior. you've already identified the first two targets, scouted nearby land, and met another AI. I can't tell in your screenshot, but Brennus was Hindu in my game, so his borders expanded twice...thus making it harder to worker steal from him. Hammy worker steal is obvious with the gold tile.

cas

Edit: if you're going for conquest, GLH is not necessary with pangaea map. If you're going for a VC that takes longer and you have 5+ coastal cities it is a good idea.

 

[vranasm]

Shadow to T85

Spoiler :

to T85 with BFC copper I went for something untraditional for me

Celts and Hammi dead

Spoiler :

I am not sure if I should go for kill Greece... still can't find him and AI's will probably have archers soon (Celts already had)

 

[MarigoldRan]

We'll never get to America!!!

 

[oledavy]

A couple thoughts:

1) Brennus and Hammurabi are too far away for an effective rush I feel, and Hammy's UU pretty much precludes an effective pre-catapult rush against him imho without suffering significant casualties.

2) You should move your second city one tile east, make the city coastal and gain a riverside grassland at the expense of two plains forests and a grassland, terrain you're less likely to utilize with in this smaller, production poor city.

3) The stone opens up interesting options in terms of wonders Your food heavy start might benefit from representation-powered specialists - courtesy of the pyramids. A specialist economy would have nice synergy with Gilgamesh's river poor start and creative trait (faster libraries).

 

[s.bernbaum]

I agree with cas and CreeDakota - settle on the stone for the second city.

 

[Benginal]

Another vote for settle on the stone. You're creative, you might as well put it to use. And I'd definitely rush both neighbors. Enjoy prince while you can, .

 

[cas]

A couple thoughts:

1) Brennus and Hammurabi are too far away for an effective rush I feel, and Hammy's UU pretty much precludes an effective pre-catapult rush against him imho without suffering significant casualties.

Not true on prince with these AI. Brennus usually goes for a religion early and doesn't prioritize archery from my experience. As punctuator pointed out, Hammy went fishing first which slows him down a bit. And they are both slow to BW, which means they can't whip last second when you attack.

Of course, this assumes whip/chop 2 vultures asap...not later. It should work most of the time with these distances and circumstances. If you lose the first vulture or see a bowman, you can back out of the attack and just worker steal (Hammy).

cas

 

[oledavy]

Sorry, lol, forgot the difficulty level - I usually play on Emperor where the AI starts out with archery. But in that case, YES VULTURE RUSH! Whip that food heavy start to the ground for 2-4 vultures!

I still believe pyramids could be a sound play, if you hook the stone up quickly (with a quarry or by settling on it) and que up a second worker, you could chop the 'mids out pretty quickly using all those forests around Uruk. Each chop with be worth 60 hammers with the stone bonus.

(base 30*100%) = 60 750(pyramid cost)/60 = 12.5 forest chops

If you grabbed mathematics you could make each chop worth 90 hammers!

(base 45*100%) = 90 750/90 = 8.3 forest chops

You could pre-chop to achieve this while teching toward mathematics. You'll probably capture a worker from whoever you rush, and you'll need all these and possibly another one produced in Uruk to effectively chop and road to Bibracte/Babylon.

On another note, as Cas pointed out, Brennus generally goes for an early religion. Someone may need to check me on this, but I believe he is the only one of the leaders you selected (other than Asoka) who starts with mysticism. He has a pretty good chance of founding a religion - making him the more attractive rush target. If you rush him before his borders pop and he gets 40% defensive bonus due to holy city culture, you can get a the Buddhist/Hindu Holy City and acquire a religion to help deal with unhappiness

 

[punctuator]

I'm not feeling inclined to build the pyramids, although we'll see where we stand after a couple of vultures. Seems a legit strategy for this start, but I'd rather spend my early turns warring and expanding, I think. Like I said, I kinda hate stone because it makes wonder building too tempting.

You've all talked me into settling on the stone. When I looked at that earlier, I didn't like it, but now I can't remember why. I think maybe it just looked too far from my capital for my tastes.

My build order after that boat is done is definitely going to be Vultures ASAP. They're a 9 turn build right now, but I'll be whipping and chopping for sure.

I do think a rush can be effective. It's epic speed, which helps with the travel time, and Prince so they don't start with archers. And 3000 BC strikes me as pretty early to be building the first Vulture. I'm definitely going for one of them before even settling my second city, the question is just which. Cas and oledavy make good points about the likely religion in Brennus' city, but I'd love to catch Hammurabi before he gets Bowmen. Isn't it likely that Brennus will spread to me anyway and maybe we can be friendly for a while?

So I guess now I'm thinking: Assume either Hammurabi or Brennus would fall easily to a Vulture rush. Which would it be more beneficial to take out first, and which can wait until later? I'm leaning towards Hammurabi if I can reassure myself he lacks bows. That gold will help with happiness just as much as a religion, which I can probably get anyway.

Going to play another round of turns sometime today, when I have a little time.

 

[oledavy]

One more quick thought in deciding who to rush (or maybe both?) Hammy's favorite civic is bureaucracy, so once you tech to civil service it will be pretty easy to keep him at pleased (provided you run bureaucracy, of course). He has a dynamite UU on the defense and will be very hard to kill for awhile if you do not go after him now. Of course, this presumes he does not get bowmen before your vultures arrive.

If Brennus gets a religion you will invariably get it and have no problem keeping him friendly. However, if he does not, he will probably come after you sooner or later - I've found him to be very aggressive in my games and war will be inevitable sometime during the classical/medieval period.