Hitler??

[player1 fanatic]

¿Wich spanish leaders do you mean? Isabel I? She just turned out the jewish from spain, killed some of them of course, but not 6 million people!!!

It's hardly "just".

 

[Stilgar08]

Then I guess I would be buying a european version ... if at all; no way will I buy any version that has that psychpathic racist madman in it in any way shape or form. I will not give even the smallest sense of legitimacy to him or his 'followers' here in the US in any way shape or form in a game.

The problem is most normal rational people see it as merely a game ...harmless ... but his sick rabid followers that are still extremely active and dangerous even today would percieve it as a statement of legitimacy given to his racist legacy and views and encourage them to persist in their evil viewpoint. ?

I completely agree. Even a discussion about this is unnecessary. Hitler hasn't been a great leader, but a mad murderer of six million people! 6,000,000!!! This is Washington completely (The STATE, not the city!!!)! Or Chicago more than twice! (I know no one can picture this figure, but give it a thought)!
Neither Genghis Khan has done that, nor has Oliver Cromwell or anybody else!
More differences to other bad guys are:

1. it's only 60 years ago!
2. 6,000,000!!!
3. The holocaust has been done organised as a functioning killing factory like no one ever had created before!
4. no reason after all! No war-reason or calculated purpose at all, except for wiping people out! What a waste and insanity!

The Americans commited genocide against the indians but it's longer ago, hasn't been done like the way Hitler did it and it hasn't been pushed by Abe Lincoln or another single person (Important: I'm not saying, Hitler is the only one guilty of what had happened, no way! But there's no such "icon" to any other genocide like Hitler!!!).

It's NOT funny to play against him and it's right to leave him where he is, hopefully rotting in hell! And it's not a pro, that other bad boys are included in the game. He is not like them and even if he would be it wouldn't make things better.

Go ahead: Tell me to stop whining and call me a baby and after that please ask some of the survivors of the holocaust what they think about this fun-idea...

I am from Germany, I'm not insulted (!!), that's not why I'm writing this here! There's nothing I can do about the history of my home-country and the darkest spot on it!
But I never would want to have Hitler in a game of civilization because he represents the opposite of what a civilization is all about!!!

If you want to play against Nazi-Germany: Fine, make a mod, but please don't bother me with that. Makes me sick even to think about it...

 

[oldStatesman]

We are way over those silly WWII propoganda. We are in a different time of era and we should always strive to learn from our mistakes. So bottomline, I don't see the reason why Hitler can't be in the game.

No we are not. Hitler is dead but his sick legacy lives on.

Hate groups are very much alive and well in the US - neonazis, skinheads, KKK to name a few.

And putting him in the game will IN THEIR SICK TWISTED minds legitimisize their beliefs. They will buy the game for their children and say "look little Adolph, your namesake is a World Leader in one of the most popular games of all time. Now go and play and let him dominate the world".

Hitler is evil. Other dictators have killed many more people - but their teachings are not still alive in the same way. Hitler was more than a leader - he started a sick philosophy of hate that still reverberates. No way should Civ contribute to the reinforcement of that legacy, even in the smallest of ways.

JMO

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

Hitler is evil. Other dictators have killed many more people - but their teachings are not still alive in the same way.

Id say communism is much more alive than fascism in the world of today.

Other leaders through the ages have been crueler and killed more people than Hitler, the difference is that the wounds Hitler caused are still raw to some people.

Personally I say lets not include Hitler, leaders should be leaders that the nation can be proud of, it wouldnt be fair to the Germans to put as their leaders the man who have destroyed Germany more than any other leaders, ever.

 

[Stilgar08]

Id say communism is much more alive than fascism in the world of today.

Other leaders through the ages have been crueler and killed more people than Hitler, the difference is that the wounds Hitler caused are still raw to some people.

Please diverse Communism from Socialism. And you just can't compare communism to fascism. The systems have a different purpose and use different ways to "motivate" their supporters or the people who want to or have to live in such a system..

Nevertheless if your are referring to Stalin as wanted leader: I don't want him, either!

I don't want to start a headcount, although I doubt that any other historical person stands for more dead people (maybe Staln gets close?!? Doesn't matter). That leads nowhere! 6 million people in about 12 years is enough to disqualify IMHO.

 

[oldStatesman]

Id say communism is much more alive than fascism in the world of today.

Other leaders through the ages have been crueler and killed more people than Hitler, the difference is that the wounds Hitler caused are still raw to some people.

Personally I say lets not include Hitler, leaders should be leaders that the nation can be proud of, it wouldnt be fair to the Germans to put as their leaders the man who have destroyed Germany more than any other leaders, ever.

I am not refering to fascism but national socialism and the view that all others but aryans are racially inferior sub humans.

Fascism is another topic ...

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

Yea, I ment national socialism .

Not really many of those today, just a couple of old, bitter, madmen from WWII and their younger, bald, comrades who probably dont have the IQ of a seagull between them.

Communism is worse, many Russians wants to go back to communism... and China is still communistic, though more liberal than they once were.

 

[oldStatesman]

Yea, I ment national socialism .

Not really many of those today, just a couple of old, bitter, madmen from WWII and their younger, bald, comrades who probably dont have the IQ of a seagull between them.

Maybe not in Sweden but they are unfortunately very much alive and well in the US.

 

[toft]

I think Hitler would be awsome...

If some Nations get two leaders to choose from, then Germany would be great with Bismarck and Hitler.

 

[Stilgar08]

I think Hitler would be awsome...

If some Nations get two leaders to choose from, then Germany would be great with Bismarck and Hitler.

Am I fighting windmills?? What do you think about old statesman's or my posts concerning this???

My idol is Don Quichote!

 

[toft]

You cant say that Hitler hasnt had a major influence on history. I dont think he could be THE leader, but if Germany would have two leaders to choose from, then Hitler would be an obvious choice nomatter what he did. I think a lot of people would love to slaughter him ingame...

 

[ogmoir]

It would be very cruel to set Hitler as one of the German leaders. It would be like having a sci-fi game with many different species, where the leader of Humans were Satan (this analogy would be better if he were a real person).

 

[Tantor]

I don`t think Hitler should be the only leader option for the germans, but as I said before he should be the german leader in WWII scenario. I also do know he`s controversial. But I believe including him in CIV IV also is important to make sure nobody ever forgets about him. If we don`t want history to repeat itself I believe it is important for us never to forget what happened 60 years ago. Civ can make its contribution here as lots if people learns history and gains interest through Civ.

 

[Preusse]

Some must be nuts talking about including Hitler in the game.
And you can't compare this one to other despots of ancient assyrian or whatever empires. In historical terms this was just yesterday and we're much closer related to him. And to be honest: ancient hellenic, syriac, egyptiac societies don't exist anymore;the german do and i don't want anyone to mistake Hitler for todays german society's chief or the best their history could offer.

Why not take Kaiser Friedrich II a very intelligent and slightly crazy emperor,
who is far away from now and still representative?


Ey a pc-game helping not to forget!? where you from? Deepest Siberia?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

C'mon, Firaxis/T2 don't want to educate - they want to sell.
While Firaxis for sure also tries to come by with an outstanding product, if any feature may get the game banned or badmouthed somewhere, they would be really stupid to keep it...
They'll always cave, like with the removal of Mao in the Chinese Civ3. And, they're of course right IMHO.

 

[N3pomuk]

Oh please, how exactly is having Hitler in Civ4 education?
Read a book if you wish to educate yourself about Hitler or Nazi-Germany.
Hitler was not "great" by any reasonable definition of the word, look at what Europe looked like after 12 years of his rule! Or rather do you want to have to appease a Hitler when you play Civ4?
As for the not forgetting, read the Civ3 Civilopedia, they didn't omit them "wonderful" years.
Cheers, and always remember games should entertain and teach not offend people.

 

[OxfordPferd]

You cant say that Hitler hasnt had a major influence on history. I dont think he could be THE leader, but if Germany would have two leaders to choose from, then Hitler would be an obvious choice nomatter what he did. I think a lot of people would love to slaughter him ingame...

Probably Germany will have 2 leaders, but I don't think Hitler and Bismarck would be a good choice, simply because they aren't very different.
Hitler's Germany: Militaristic, Xenophobic, Expansionist, Anti-Democratic, Anti-Socialist, Economic Growth, scientific....
Bismarck: Militaristic, Xenophobic, Anti-Democratic, Anti-Socialist, Economic Growth, scientific ....
There are differences of course. Bismarck wasn't a complete madman like Hitler, he introduced social security systems and helped to keep peace in europe for a long time with his system of alliances, but nevertheless the tendencies are alike. Anyway, Hitler won't be in the game. Imagine Berlin, the holy city of Judaism, led by Adolf Hitler? Won't happen.
So if there are 2 german leaders, they should be
1. Bismarck or one of the 2 Kaiser Wilhelms to represent the conservative "Prussian" Germany
2. A more democratic/pacifist leader either from modern germany (Willy Brandt or Konrad Adenauer) or the Weimar Republik (Friedrich Ebert, Gustav Stresemann,...) or even a German Socialist from the GDR or Weimar (Karl Liebknecht/Rosa Luxemburg, Thälmann, Ulbricht, Honecker). I don't known these people are outside of Germany. Probably they'll choose some medieval king.

 

[MamboJoel]

In one of those silly TV-pool the germans recently elected their greatest man of all time : Adenauer
I think it's the best choice.
Wilhem II is brilliant. In fact, we are mostly talking about modern Germany, 1871 to nowdays. Otherwise we could get interested in the rulers of the Holly Roman Empire...

 

[N3pomuk]

I don't understand why Charles the Great, in German Karl der Große, in Latin Carolus Magnus, or plainly Charlemagne isn't considered a German Emperor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

I mean he created what was the Holy Roman Empire, somthing held very high by Nobles in german territory for ages. On the other hand you might as well also make him Leader of France, a little Schizophrenia never hurt anyone.

BTW why is Bismark always in talk as the Military leader, why not Barbarossa (aka Frederik 1.) I do believe he was German Leader in Civ1.

 

[ogmoir]

I don't understand why Charles the Great, in German Karl der Große, in Latin Carolus Magnus, or plainly Charlemagne isn't considered a German Emperor.

I think having Charlemagne, who was born in modern day France and initially the leader of a Frankish kingdom, as a leader of the Germans would be a bit strange. He could as well be a Roman leader, as he was, for the first time in hundreds of years, named Emperor of the Romans.