HMM1 - French Monarch Sucession Game

[Kaiser_Berger]

Your plan seems fairly sound. I think we can probably get away with the more OCP, especially for our cores. Once we get the continent under control, I think we should really pack the cities itno our non-core areas to bump up our culture production, since those areas are likely to be severly corrupt anyway.

As far as the AI go, I'm not sure if there are any more on our continent. We'll know for sure when we get writing. If the AI is squeezed together on the other continent, we're probably going to end up a good ways behind in tech for a while. Nothing that some crafty trading can't remedy though.

 

[Frollo]

This would be my build order:

1. First, let's settle on the Incense in the W. With the choke point under our control, we got Japan practically locked down in their place.
OTOH, settling there may provoke a war we aren't ready for...
2. After that, create the worker farm (blue dot) and build roads to connect the Incense to our trade network.
3. Green dot. This will pretty much lock the Indians out so we can safely expand to yellow and black.
4. Black dot. It's close to the capital and we want some low-corruption cities ASAP.
5. Purple dot. Same reason. Without industrious workers, I'd put purple last on the list.
6. Yellow dot. Least important, because green and blue will close our borders before long.

Of course, this order may change, depending on where Iron appears.

 

[Hmmmmm]

Originally posted by Frollo
This would be my build order:

1. First, let's settle on the Incense in the W. With the choke point under our control, we got Japan practically locked down in their place.
OTOH, settling there may provoke a war we aren't ready for...

Check down the right hand side of the contient!! Are those lakes near the 'choke' point salt or fresh?

2. After that, create the worker farm (blue dot) and build roads to connect the Incense to our trade network.

With all of the forests and mountains we will need lots of workers. I very rarely build workers in my games as I tend to take them from other civs. However I am not so sure that we will be ready for an early war in this game.

3. Green dot. This will pretty much lock the Indians out so we can safely expand to yellow and black.

I am not so sure about this dot, I would happily just wait until we take madras from the Indians. But if others want it go for it.

4. Black dot. It's close to the capital and we want some low-corruption cities ASAP.

We could do with another core city fairly soon to pump out our military forces.

Of course, this order may change, depending on where Iron appears.

I guess the appearance of Iron could change this order to

However you would hope that there should be a lot of iron around with all of these mountains.

 

[Hmmmmm]

1) Sir Bugsy
2) Reddwarfian
3) zurichuk
4) Frollo
5) Kaiser_Berger
6) handy900 (To Play)
7) Hmm (On Deck)

 

[handy900]

I’m scoring the voting similar to golf, lowest score wins. One point for your top priority build, 2 for the next build, etc. So far the voting is as follows with 4 of 7 precincts reporting. HMM abstained on his 5th & 6th choices, which is fine since the best laid plans… well you know. I gave 5.5 to the cities HMM did not mention.

1. Blue dot 6 points (2 firsts 2 seconds) I guess Bugsy, Red or Zur gets to break the tie
2. Incense 6 points (2 firsts 2 seconds)
3. Green dot for the silks. 12 points
4. Yellow Dot. 20 points
5. Purple. 20 points
6. Black Dot. 21 points

Handy’s wife thinks he overanalyzes. Ya think?!?!?

I’m thinking of changing my vote to incense. The more I think about it, the better I like the idea of locking Japan down. With regards to the incense choke point, I can’t tell if that is ocean or one or two big freshwater lakes. I think we should settle regardless. If it’s a lake, no aqueduct needed . If its ocean, then it’s a very important tile indeed as it totally stops Japan's expansion into our jungle. Yes this may induce an early war, which is why I recommend we build walls first in that city. Three spears fortified in a city on a hill with walls is a tough nut for the typical 4 archer AI stack to crack. If we are very very lucky we may get an elite spear on defense that gives us a leader. This has only happened to me once when the RNG was feeling particularly generous. More likely would be using horsemen to attack the AI units to get a couple leaders. If you have not read Sir Plebs article on leader farming, I highly recommend it.

I agree with Kaiser. We'll buy culture in the far out corrupt cities.

I'll play & post tonight.

 

[zurichuk]

I'll leave the city debate to you guys, if the choke point is a choke point I would prefer that, however i'm stronger in other areas

I'm almost certain there is another civ on the continent because the Iroquois have lost Niagara Falls, it was in the diplomacy screen from my save, also it is normally the 2nd city they build and is no longer there on the last save posted.

Another possibility is they have already lost their capital and it has moved to Niagara Falls

Now I don't think the Indians or the Japanese could have got them so if not, there must be at least another civ around, this means that the 'choke point' may not be so or there is some more exploring to do around the Iroquois.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Since the worker is the most valuable unit in the game. I'd say go for the blue dot worker factory then Incense.

 

[Reddwarfian]

Ditto

 

[handy900]

Blue dot wins 4 to 3. Incense is second. Green dot 3rd. Everything else is too many turns away to be considered as set in stone, but for those of you scoring at home, the results are.
Blue
Incense
Green
Yellow & Black in a tie
Purple

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Since the worker is the most valuable unit in the game...

I agree 100% about the value of the workers.

 

[handy900]

Away we go...

Pre check- 1790 BC
Replace PTW with CIV
Insert ZZ Top
We have 323 gold and are earning 14 GPT. Going for writing in 6 turns.
We are tech advanced.
We are down Horseback Riding to polite Iroquois. They want 270 gold.
We are up Pottery & Mysticism on the annoyed Japanese, they have 17 gold.
We are up Masonry & Mysticism on the polite Indians. Indians have zero gold
Don’t pull the trigger with the Indians. We may meet someone that will lead to a double swap.
F10 reveals we are playing against these 11 rivals: Japan, Iroquois, India, Persia, Aztecs, Rome, Zulu, China, England, America and Egypt. Odds are we have two more rivals on OUR continent.

The screen shot reveals zero gold on the hill near the wheat. That always means it is not on the river. If it says 1 gold, it’s considered “on” the river almost always.

Turn 1 1750 BC
Orleans defends and kills barbarian
Worker building road done in 5 turns (love that industriousness)
Wake worker & send to road the horses.
Settler & warrior moving towards blue dot
Worker moves onto furs. Will road then chop for the temple.
Pierre (in Japan) retreats to mountain to rest & heal.
Jean (north of Madras) attacks fortified barb on a hill. Wins & gets 25 gold.
Francois (north of the Iroquois) will follow the coast south.
We need 5 extra food for a settler factory. Paris only has 4 extra food per turn. I don’t see a way to a 4-turn settler factory. If someone else does, pleas enlighten me.
I change the Temple in Lyons to a spearman, which will be done in 1 turn so no shields are wasted. We will need this spear to escort the settler to the incense. I don’t like to send out unescorted settlers. We will need Lyons to turn out spears to escort the settlers from Paris. Happiness should no be a problem at monarch. I hate to waste the chop on spearmen, but I really hate to lose an undefended city even more.

Turn 2 1725 BC
Settler moves toward blue dot.
Pierre is healing.
I move a slightly hurt Jean to a hill for a peek.
Francois is to the moving south.
Workers are busy building roads.
No change in techs.
Paris due to grow in 2, Settler due in 2.

Turn 3 1700 BC
Settler arrives at Blue Dot
Jean heals
Pierre heals
Francois south. Notes silks.
Spearman gets to see Paris.

Turn 4 1675 BC
Settler completed in Paris, and the 5 turn (4 extra food) Settler factory gears up again). Spearman & Settler head to Incense. It will take them 9 turns to get there.
Build Rheims on the Blue. Dot after on last check to ensure there is 1 gold tile on this hill. If we have to build an aqueduct I’m going to be bummed. It will take 10 turns to grow to population 2, so I set the build for 2 warriors and then a worker. We will need an escort for out settler due in 5 turns. Our next city will be on top of the silks, so the warrior due in 5 can escort the settler due in 5 to the silks. The spearman due in Lyons can go with the settler after that to yellow or Black. Take your Pick. (I’d go for yellow that is great land)
Jean heads SW so he can stay on the hills to reveal more land.
Francois south. Spots new green borders. (My guess Aztecs or Persia)
Pierre ready to go after barbs again
We steal a worker from Iroquois for only 30 gold. I don’t think they will last long, which is good since I can’t type Iroquois easily. He still wants 270 for HR. Let’s wait.
Still up 2 techs on Japanese and India.

Turn 5 1650 BC
Pierre is attacked. He wins but must heal before stealing gold.
Road to Orleans completed. Send workers to build road to what I hope is our incense.
Jean is still heading SW on the hills.
Just noticed I screwed up big time. Lyons is on furs so I wasted 5 turns building the road when I could have been chopping. Sorry team. This worker retreats to mine the grassland.
Our newly purchased slave is building a road to Rheims.
Francois heading to green border (away from the coast he is going SW).

Turn 6 1625 BC
We get writing. I set max science to Iron Working. Which we will get in 14 turns. I really want to know where the Iron is. I’m do not view myself as a great trader so you can all help me in the area. I probably like Always War games because there is no trading.
Jean goes N on the hills. Worker heads to Rheims to road 7 irrigate. Settler moving to incense.
Fully healed Pierre loses against a barb. RIP.
Worker mining Lyons.
We meet Persia (Niagara Falls is in Persian hands) & steal a worker for 30 gold. Man, they won’t trade you one for less than 110 gold in PTW! Slave sent to Lyons to mine.
We trade Writing to Iroquois for Horseback Writing & get 39 gold (all he has)
We trade Writing to Persia + 50 gold for Iron Working.
Net, for Writing +11 gold (net) we get iron Working & Horseback riding.
We are up in Tech on everyone as follows:
India we are up Masonry, IW, Writing, Mysticism, HRB. Zero gold. Lack 3 communications
Japan we are up Pottery, IW, Writing, Mysticism, HRB. Zero gold.
Persia we are up Writing, Mysticism, HRB. 91 Gold. They don’t know Japan or India
Iroquois we are up no techs, but we have horses & they do not. We also have 367 gold & they have none.
Iron is on the way to the incense, north of Lyons, North of Rheims and best of all, due south of Paris. There is Iron everywhere. This game is very winnable unless we royally screw up!
I set max research to Literature.
One heck of a good turn for the French!


Turn 7
1600 BC
Jean goes NW on the hills. Worker heads to Rheims to road 7 irrigate. Settler moving to incense (5 turns) Will we make it in time? Japan is way behind in tech. Are they at war?
Francois heading south spots a goody hut.
Settler and Warrior due in 2 turns.
Trade HBR to Persia for 85 gold (he has 91 in the vault).

Turn 8
1575 BC
Francois pops 3 barbs from a goody hut. Lyons is undefended, but these guys are pretty far away. We should send one of the warriors being built in Rheims to Lyons.
Jean goes N staying on the hills.
Workers are positioning themselves to road to the silks. India looks very weak in this game. Perhaps they are at war also.
FYI I did not build any embassies yet. I don’t see any rush to road to the Iron at this point.

Turn 9
1550 BC
Francois beats 3 barbs & is now elite. He is heading south.
Parisian Settler heads to the silks. Warrior from Rheims hooks up with him.
Paris is now size 4 & settler due in 6. Pop will grow in 1 turn. Did I slip up somewhere? I was checking each turn before I pressed enter.
Start a chop in Lyons on the river.
Worker & slave building a road to the silks.
Jean goes N on Hills. We really need to explore West of Lyons. We got a little peek from our settler.

Turn 10
1525 BC
Jean goes N on Hills. I’m sure Xerses won’t mind if we cut through his land. I’d keep him going NW to see what is up there.
Francois heads to a hill for R&R.
Start Chop in Lyons. We want bonus grassland!
Settlers and workers moving toward the silks near Madras.
Looks like we will get the incense next turn. It is unsettled. Use the workers to chop to hurry Walls & a temple.

We are looking good here I think. Big gold and tech lead. Looks like we will hook up 2 more luxuries soon. I like our chances for any victory condition we choose.
We are the only one building a wonder at this time.
I recommend we keep Lyons turning out spearmen. As the city grows, Spearmen production may exceed the settler production out of Paris. If you can chop a quick barracks somehow between settlers that would be great. Vet spears in the border cities helps a lot. Rheims & those wheat are so close to Paris, we may be able to get some settlers out of there also to grab more land. The silk city would be a good place to grow warriors to explore India. But first chop & get the plains irrigated so we can get a temple in the silk city to avoid a flip.

Go HMMMMM!!

hmm1 1525bc

 

[Frollo]

Wow. Those are great turns! Excellent trading, we are the science leader of the known world now!
I pity the Iroquois. They tend to do really well with their UU and take an early lead, but with no horses... Poor sods...

Do you think the Iroquois are at war with Xerxes? Looking at the screenshot, with 2 units within Persian borders, I'd say they are.

Maybe we should settle N of Lyons, if only for Iron denial.

 

[Hmmmmm]

2) No worker purchases before 1000BC to avoid civ crippling.

I take it you didn't read the rules then. It can be considered an exploit to be buying workers from civs that completely undervalue them.

Will wait for everyone to check in to see who thinks what. Otherwise it looks like a good set of turns.

As too settler factory you need to check that after the first growth that it will grow and produce settler in the same number of turns.

 

[Frollo]

Originally posted by Hmmmmm


It can be considered an exploit to be buying workers from civs that completely undervalue them.

Personally, I don't think of this as an exploit. Nor is it cheating, it's not even bending the rules.
The designers simply decided to build in the possibility to exchange workers, so it's a perfectly viable option. (As a matter of fact, I don't even think of RCP as an exploit. My rule of thumb is, if I can do something without modding the game, it's permitted.)

However, by joining this SG, we all more or less implicitely agreed to the rules Hmmmmm pointed out at the beginning of the thread. Therefore, handy900 should not have bought those workers.

I don't suggest handy should redo his moves. I'd say the next player moves the slaves to Paris immediately and give them back to their original owners. Don't trade for them, don't let them finish whatever they're doing. No, give them back instantly.

 

[Hmmmmm]

Guess that is one way around it.

It may not be an exploit however it is an oversite by the designers. As Handy pointed out the workers are now far more expensive in PTW. However the civs in Vanilla undervalue their workers and will sell them very cheaply. The result of this for the civ that sells them is that it loses in the race to get added value terrain. A better designed civ would realise the value of having as many workers as possible early in the game and refuse to sell them to you.

So you may take advantage of this if you wish however it will weaken the civs that you buy them from early in the game making your end game far easier.

When playing my own games I do not mind using this to help maximise my score. However in these SG's we are playing to beat the ''AI'' without taking advantages of oversites by the developers.

 

[handy900]

Yikes. I did read them but obviously not with very good comprehension. One way to rectify the situation is to gift each worker back to the originating Civ. The team will be out 60 gold total (30 each) as penance for my sin. As least we not had them for very many turns as of yet.

Another option is for me to replay each turn in exact sequence (I kept good notes) except for the purchase of the workers. I can do this tonight when I get home.

I plead guilty of just not paying good attention. I never abuse ROP, break 20 turn deals or any of the other stuff in LKender rules, but I obviously missed the worker purchase one rule. I do often use RCP in solo games so I remembered not to break that rule.

If this has really irritated you feel free to delete me from the team. Like I said, it’s your game and I did break the rules, so you as owner have the right to punish as you see fit. I really am sorry I missed this.

 

[handy900]

Originally posted by Frollo
Wow. Those are great turns! Excellent trading, we are the science leader of the known world now!
I pity the Iroquois. They tend to do really well with their UU and take an early lead, but with no horses... Poor sods...

Do you think the Iroquois are at war with Xerxes? Looking at the screenshot, with 2 units within Persian borders, I'd say they are.

Maybe we should settle N of Lyons, if only for Iron denial.

Thanks for the compliment on trading. Trading is the weakest aspect of my game. Please point out areas where I can improve my trading skills as I want to get better at this. I will be watching everyone's trades for enlightenment.

I did not witness any Iroquois versus Persian battles, but I do think they are still at war. If not, they were recently. I wonder if the rest of Persia is in the big black spot NW of Lyons, or the other spot NE of Lyons. Either way we need a defender in Lyons.

I'd have to pull up the map to see if the Iroquois have horses in or near their borders that are not yet hooked up. They may be, I don't recall seeing any. I'm 90% sure I recall seeing horses a few tiles east of them near the coast. There is Iron very close to Niagara Falls; I think it may be in their city border. They may be having a hard time hooking it up if they are still at war, and there are definitely no roads yet from Niagara back to Persia.

The Iron denial may be tough to pull off. We need a little more recon before we commit. Given how much Iron is near us, there may be Iron all over the map. Also Niagara has Iron, so we would need to take that city as well for denial.

We are in great shape. If we stay at peace for a while and continue to expand we will be very strong.

I can't help but wonder why Japan is soooo far behind.

Finally - see my post above. I really am sorry I blew the no purchase of worker rules, and apologize to all.

 

[Frollo]

'Guilty', 'punish'... What's all this? Dostoyevsky?
Such harsh words!
I mean, c'mon, it's just a game and it's supposed to be fun!

I sure don't want handy off the team. He did some great moves and is a valuable member. I also doubt it's necessary taking those turns again. That'd be a tedious job and we're doing fine even without those 60 bucks.

I'd say next player just give the workers back and we'll forget about the whole thing, no?

This is just my opinion.
After all, Hmmmmm, it's your game and you're the one to decide.

 

[zurichuk]

Well I thought there was great trading and a lovely set of turns which has kept and increased our good start / advantage, I think the Iroqoius are stuffed soon anyway, looks like at the advantage of the Persians, so the Iroquois worker is a very minor exploit anyway. However it is hmmmm's game and I have no objection to just giving them back or to following his decision

still good work though and i'd have you in my team anyday

 

[handy900]

Originally posted by Frollo
'Guilty', 'punish'... What's all this? Dostoyevsky?
Such harsh words!
I mean, c'mon, it's just a game and it's supposed to be fun!

I sure don't want handy off the team. He did some great moves and is a valuable member. I also doubt it's necessary taking those turns again. That'd be a tedious job and we're doing fine even without those 60 bucks.

I'd say next player just give the workers back and we'll forget about the whole thing, no?

This is just my opinion.
After all, Hmmmmm, it's your game and you're the one to decide.

Thanks for your kind words! It's not everyday you get to see a forum post where Dostoyevsky is mentioned. Very well done. I do really feel bad about it though. I'm one of those players that never reloads a game, etc. If I made a dumb decision in a game (like roading an extra fur!) , I don't reload the auto save, I just try to play my way out of it. So I do feel bad about breaking a rule.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Workers - I'd say gift them back as soon as we can. It will make us very popular.

Embassies - We need these ASAP. That way we can at least know who's at war with whom.

Dostoyevsky - That is one of the really cool things about this site. There are some very cultured, intelligent, well-educated people that fill these forums with their rhetoric. How often do you see a quote in Latin, or from a work of classic literature?

Handy - Great trading!