bjbrains
Man of U-235
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2007
- Messages
- 837
Someone made that up. It doesn't exist.
How Dare They? This can't be a Civ game now more. Bring back the Spearman Vs Tank...
- Thread starter Davor
- Start date
Fookison
Chieftain
I always found this to be a hokey element of previous CIV editions. Glad it is gone!!
StittsvilleJame
Warlord
I agree it's good to be gone. I don't know why an unrealistic, and not fun gameplay mechanic should possibly stay in a game just to satisfy a few people who look nostalgically back through rose coloured glasses to a game 10 years past, or to appease the lunatic fringe who feel that because there is a very limited and specific set of circumstances in which it has a slightly higher than 0% probability that somehow it is a viable result.
Good riddance I say!
Good riddance I say!
I'm hoping that this (in addition to combat-strength inflation, it looks like modern units are close to an order of magnitude stronger than ancient now) is why Firaxis is saying it's now "impossible" for spearman > tank - because the new Civ paradigm is everyone has far fewer units than was once typical.
Even in the old days it was quite rare for something totally out of whack to occur - but given enough players playing, and spearmen spearing, it would (statistics kind of works that way) happen some. But make it vanishingly unlikely, and along the way greatly reduce the number of dice throws... and you get practical impossibility.
I'd still like to see theoretical possibility, though. Seems humorless otherwise.
(emphasis added by me)
The assumption you made there is pretty unlikely IMO.
Forgive me for being skeptical, but assuming you are not misleading us, I can only assume your recollection of events is poor.
IF we assume the scout was maxed out on promotions (Combat 6 - requires a great general -, G2, W2) and had max defense (on a hill, forest, fort, fully fortified, full health)..
(which is a huge assumption in your favour)
and the modern armor had no promotions (just the measly 1 first strike),
then the odds of the scout winning are about 1 in 2 trillion.
Maybe about 557 million hours and I might have believed you.
(about 50:50 odds if you fought one battle per second)bernlin2000
Prince
If you find this change will make the game more boring, you get amused by the strangest things... 
. This was very unlikely in CivIV anyhow, and usually happened when you had a tank stack fighting upgraded spearman in a well-fortified city over and over, until the tank's strength was so weak the spearman (or any unit, for that matter) could take it down. I doubt this sort of scenario has gone away, except that a stack of spearmen is obviously not possible, but you could have 20 spearmen surrounding a city. 
I think what they were saying (and was true in CivIV) is that a full hp tank vs a full hp spearman is a fight that will always be in the tank's favor. How is this boring? In CivIII I couldn't stand it when a crappy, weak civilization with weak units could defeat my tanks: I worked harder than them to build a military and it should show! 
. This was very unlikely in CivIV anyhow, and usually happened when you had a tank stack fighting upgraded spearman in a well-fortified city over and over, until the tank's strength was so weak the spearman (or any unit, for that matter) could take it down. I doubt this sort of scenario has gone away, except that a stack of spearmen is obviously not possible, but you could have 20 spearmen surrounding a city. I think what they were saying (and was true in CivIV) is that a full hp tank vs a full hp spearman is a fight that will always be in the tank's favor. How is this boring? In CivIII I couldn't stand it when a crappy, weak civilization with weak units could defeat my tanks: I worked harder than them to build a military and it should show! bernlin2000
Prince
(emphasis added by me)
The assumption you made there is pretty unlikely IMO.
Forgive me for being skeptical, but assuming you are not misleading us, I can only assume your recollection of events is poor.
IF we assume the scout was maxed out on promotions (Combat 6 - requires a great general -, G2, W2) and had max defense (on a hill, forest, fort, fully fortified, full health)..
(which is a huge assumption in your favour)
and the modern armor had no promotions (just the measly 1 first strike),
then the odds of the scout winning are about 1 in 2 trillion.
Maybe about 557 million hours and I might have believed you.
Yeah, he "misremembered". Scout victory vs tank IS mathematically impossible, full health of course. If the tank had 0.3 hp left and the scout was on a forested hill, who knows?
I actually like this, in my games I always race to be the technological superior of my world.
By the time war comes I have tanks and most of my opponents are still in the middle-ages.
(I play custom games against AI on worlds which usually give me a continent for myself, sometimes shared with one).
I've seen tanks lose to long bowman which was stupid.
Now that stacks of doom are no longer an option being technology ahead gives you the advantage you should have.
By the time war comes I have tanks and most of my opponents are still in the middle-ages.
(I play custom games against AI on worlds which usually give me a continent for myself, sometimes shared with one).
I've seen tanks lose to long bowman which was stupid.
Now that stacks of doom are no longer an option being technology ahead gives you the advantage you should have.
Yeah, he "misremembered". Scout victory vs tank IS mathematically impossible, full health of course. If the tank had 0.3 hp left and the scout was on a forested hill, who knows?
improbable≠impossible
I remember that the tank was at full health because I was so pissed I smashed my civ discs
Kruelgor
Emperor
This is a hilarious post.
hideousmonkey
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2010
- Messages
- 25
At least from what I understand, it probably is more viable to play from behind now than it was in Civ IV. Greg was giving as good as he got against Napoleon where Napoleon was much more advanced. The added tactical nature of combat should mean that if you're smart and use chokepoints and ranged/naval support you can consistently beat a higher teched force.
In Civ IV, while it was technically possible to "rage against the dying of the light" in that you might get that 1% victory, on a broad level it was the end if you were fielding musketeers against tanks.
Can you remember what promotions the scout had? What promotions the MA had? And what sort of tile it was on? (e.g. a city with no defense modifier?)
This would be great. Then the flavor is not lost at all then.
Yeah, he "misremembered". Scout victory vs tank IS mathematically impossible, full health of course. If the tank had 0.3 hp left and the scout was on a forested hill, who knows?
I must actually believe the guy, I mean I have no real reason to think he is lying to us. If it is represented in a number/a probability it is no mathematically impossible. Mathematically impossible would be, i don´t know, to get the square root of an orange; I don´t mean to ofend stating an obvious absurd but sometimes making this does precise the point.
I have spent net months of my life playing these games (not proud of.. clearly), as I´m sure many others here did. Having one gamer who arguments some 1 over 2 trillion odds as Piece says doesn´t surprise me really. As we know it doesn´t need to fall upon the last try, it could do so in the first one with the same rate. If Civ King would want all of us to believe that this happened to him twice then I would certainly know he is very much full of sh.... hahaha!!
With a more realistic scenario than the one I said before (where the scout doesn't have about 300% defense modifier
), this time with the scout only having 30% defense modifier (e.g. combat 3), then the odds are...1 in 29,400,000,000,000,000,000,000 ( 1 in 29.4 billion trillion)
Roughly speaking it's the odds of rolling a 1 on a 25-sided die 15 times in a row. If that ever happened to me, I'd be freakin out heaps. Probably a million times harder than this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI
If his memory were right, it would almost certainly be a case of the game being bugged. Maybe in one of the earliest versions of civ4 vanilla.
With a more realistic scenario than the one I said before (where the scout doesn't have about 300% defense modifier
1 in 29,400,000,000,000,000,000,000 ( 1 in 29.4 billion trillion)
Roughly speaking it's the odds of rolling a 1 on a 25-sided die 15 times in a row. If that ever happened to me, I'd be freakin out heaps. Probably a million times harder than this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI
If his memory were right, it would almost certainly be a case of the game being bugged. Maybe in one of the earliest versions of civ4 vanilla.
I believe it was in 2005 (because I got a new, better computer for Christmas)
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