How do you keep up scientific research in the later parts of the game?

[Horizons]

I have played many games now at Prince level and find that I have that difficulty mastered, more or less. But one thing I have never been able to overcome is that I simply cannot tech through most of the modern-age techs before 2050 arrives. It's not uncommon that I don't have railroads until 1900, machine guns until 1950, and the atomic bomb by 2000.

This is through any number of play-throughs, with different styles (sometimes wide, sometimes narrow). This is even when I have been maximizing my research agreements and setting up scholarly alliances with city-states. I just find that, come the age of ideology, there are so many other things to prioritize ahead of the Rationalism tree that I have never been able to complete that policy tree.

The thing is, the AI is the same. Even the most teched-up of AIs is only a handful of techs ahead of me.

Now that I have moved onto King, which is supposed to be only a minor step up from Prince (according to the tool-tip for difficulty levels in-game, the AI receives 'small bonuses' on King compared to Prince lol), this is just crushing.

It's not quite as bad as previous versions of Civ, like Civ4, where AI tech-whoring meant that you spent the whole game trying to catch up and was the main reason I never got above Noble difficulty. It kind of feels the same here going from Prince to King. IT feels like it's impossible to tech quickly enough or complete the tech tree unless your AI opponents have enormous benefits and you can somehow steal, beg or borrow their research.

Any help would be appreciated, but I realize this is one of the 'hidden secrets' that the top gamers never talk about because it's key to beating the game at higher levels!

 

[Mozzington]

Turn 2050 off for an end game condition

 

[Althiosk]

Well, sounds like you need to just practice. When I have trouble with something specific, I start a game and prioritize it.

Getting up the national college and universities up in the capital is pretty huge.

Bet you are just randomly selecting techs, based on whatever sounds good.

I went from always losing to always par or better by industrial merely by prioritizing techs according to anticipated victory condition.

 

[Vidszhite]

Sounds like you need to learn how to science! I almost always have the Information Age finished up before the 1990s. Make sure to get national college up ASAP, then prioritize science when teching up. You can take detours, just not Cannons before Education detours. Never bulb great scientists unless you have about 3 academies in your college city. That's usually Industrial era. If not, you didn't set your college city to science focus.

Rationalism is a must. You can finish it late, but you must finish it. Don't forget to grow! Population = science. Unhappiness is your enemy, it halts growth. Friendships are also important for research agreements.

 

[kb27787]

Academies, my friend (here's a shot from the game I just played. )
btw this was on immortal but I had a very amazing starting location. 3 deer tiles, 1 wheat, 2 horses, 1 gold, 1 marble, 3 whales and 3fish (14 resources total!) for my capitol

Yes, I am aware I had the game won several dozens of turns ago, but just so you see how powerful planting scientists are...

 

[kb27787]

wow and I even forgot that 1 sheep tile... make that 15 resources within 3rd ring XD
Those spawns come in once in 100 games for me.

 

[Stellarnight]

Just some basic rules for fast science:

1) Science accumulates. The effect snowballs.
2) National College asap. Usually a decent target is turn 80+ on standard though if you are lucky with ruins, you can get it much faster. Once i got an NC around turn 50. That game was easy
3) Forget GL if you cant make it. It is not a necessity. The opportunity cost of trying to build and missing it is quite huge in the early game. Don't be afraid to go library-worker instead.
4) If possible, settle cities next to mountains. Observatory will be a HUGE boost to science.
5) Prioritize Education if the geopolitics around your Civ is okay. As of point 1, the earlier you get science, the more science you get. After Education, you can afford to stray a little. I usually pop Oxford to get me into Renaissance era.
6) Put spare population into Universities slots.
7) Make friends and sign RAs often.
8) Open Rationalism and rush for the policy that gives you science form trading post and universities.
9) Rushbuy Universities and Observatories if you need to. Point 1 stands here again. The earlier you get beakers, the faster you plow through the tech tree.

 

[mrwho]

I'm surprised you're asking about late-game rather than early-game science, as it tends to be the case that you are hopelessly behind the AI near the start of the game and then catch up. I'll just repeat what others have said:
1) National College. This massively boosts science. Although I don't think you should prioritize it before new cities usually, this should be built ASAP. It's well worth rushbuying a library in a newly founded city to ensure you get the NC, it massively increases your science output.
2) Stay happy. It may seem obvious, but it's easy to underestimate the affect unhappiness has on your science. An unhappy empire is one that doesn't growth, and an empire with no growth is an empire with bad science. Keep the empire happy at all times. Don't get complacent about it even for just a few turns. Be on the lookout for luxury deals, get mercantile City-States if you have to, and plan ahead so you don't dip into unhappiness when you grow.
3) Beeline to science technologies. Getting science buildings ASAP will massively help you out.
4) Try to get science specialists as soon as your city can afford it. Science specialists both increase science output, very useful within itself, but also generate Great Scientist points. Great Scientists are pretty much essential on the higher difficulties for a science victory, and extremely useful for all victories. Maybe not on King, but it still can't hurt! However, don't get them too early on if it harms your growth too much.
5) Research agreements. I know you said you already get a lot of them, but maybe you're not getting enough. It's not too hard to get lots of the AI to be friends with you in the early game. It may be a good idea to bribe them with a spare luxury you're not using for trading to get them friendly. More friends = more RAs = more science
6) Growth growth growth. If you're not going down tradition then aqueducts are a must. They massively speed up city growth. Any building that produces food or increases growth speed should be got ASAP, and if there aren't any specific religious beliefs you're aiming for then the extra growth from religion is also helpful. Within reasonable limits, so you don't have horrible production, prioritise growth at all times unless building wonders. Internal trade routes, especially naval, are very useful.
7) Settling next to mountains for a huge science boost from observatories
8) Don't ignore gardens and the National Epic. Any way to boost great scientists is very useful.
9) Rationalism is extremely useful for science victory. Get as many of the tennets as you can. +10% science when happy, +2 science from jungles, +17% science from universities, +2 science from specialists and 25% faster great scientists adds up to a lot of science. Finishing off the tree is useful but not completely necessary. But I'd go for secularism, humanism and free thought as a bare minimum.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

Getting cannons ahead of education can help you keep up with science, if it enables you to take out the capital city of the tech leader...

I did it in my last game. I had a bunch of well promoted trebs and a few turns after I got cannons, nebby's science production city became my science production city.

 

[isau]

IMO the step up in difficulty between Prince and King is steep. Much bigger than the step between King and Emperor.


A few more tips:

- Libraries boost science based on a percentage of your population. So, getting city size up is a priority, particularly in the capitol.

- In BNW there is a 5% global penalty to science for every city you found. The penalty is not insurmountable but I have found it very awkward to work around. Unless I need to grab a resource I don't expand past 4 cities (Tradition) or maybe 5-6 (Liberty). For Domination victories I grab only the capitols and raze everything else. If you do found a city late prepare to rush buy libraries, schools and universities there.

- As I understand it, the 5% science penalty is assessed based on the number of cities you have ever owned not how many you have now. It also applies to puppets. You can dodge the penalty only by selecting "Raze" first thing when you capture it. If it is your puppet and you trade or lose it later you are still hit with the penalty.

- Needless to say, never found or take a city unless you think you can grow it. It gravely hurts your science. A 5% global penalty is huge.

- For city settling, an ideal spot is on a river next to a mountain on one side and ocean on the other. A lake is sometimes an acceptable replacement for a river if it is small.

- In the second city you found, prioritize a Granary and use a trade route to send food back to your first city. Ideally, over water. This grants a huge boost to food, food leads to population, and population leads to science.

- The sooner you hit the Ren. the sooner you get a spy. If you've been beelining, put the spy in a civ going down the path of war. You'll then begin grabbing those techs you skipped with no science investment on your part.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Only one other point to add: one of the Reformation Beliefs, "Jesuit Education" allows you to buy Universities and other higher-level Science buildings with Faith. If you have a good Faith output (Desert or Natural Wonders boosts) you can turn this into a serious Sci boost from the Ren Era onward. In the first game I discovered this, I saved my Faith and in two turns after getting Education, dropped three Universities in my three largest cities - massive Science surge that put me solidly ahead in Research for the rest of the game...

 

[rodrigoq]

kb27787.. Thats an impressive sci city.

I never get to that point.. usually everyones dead before modern era.

 

[mrwho]

Academies, my friend (here's a shot from the game I just played. )
btw this was on immortal but I had a very amazing starting location. 3 deer tiles, 1 wheat, 2 horses, 1 gold, 1 marble, 3 whales and 3fish (14 resources total!) for my capitol

Yes, I am aware I had the game won several dozens of turns ago, but just so you see how powerful planting scientists are...

When, if ever, did you stop settling your great scientists? Apparently it's more efficient, in terms of beakers, to bulb great scientists rather than settling them after Public Schools.

 

[kb27787]

When, if ever, did you stop settling your great scientists? Apparently it's more efficient, in terms of beakers, to bulb great scientists rather than settling them after Public Schools.

I know, but this was done just for fun. I had the victory assured 50 or so turns ago. I even built Manhattan even though I don't have Uranium because I ran outta things to build
(and besides, you don't get culture from bulbing them ) and Sejong gets an extra 2 sci from great people improvements and +4 from freedom policy. All in all, in his case, it is not worth bulbing until plastics, I think.

 

[Ninakoru]

National collegue is the biggest science boost you will get in the game, then universities. NC fast usually is enough in king, al long as you prioritize some growth, is easy to get tech lead.

A common error also is to not prioritize growth. Granary is top priority, and aqueducts if not tradition should be built as soon as possible too. Get maritime civs as friends/ally whenever possible. The growth boost for the capital is great.

When you advance in difficulties, science is more and more important in your gameplay, due to the free techs, workers and growth boost AI is granted in an increasing fashion. On immortal for example, half of the game is usualyl a science catch-up. Due to this, you are forced to prioritize science on higher levels.

 

[yuguna]

wow, thanks for the tip, now i wont be noobish having muskets fight against riflemen(+ uniques)
so beeline universities? whats the tech move workshops> uni?
is the worker + library better than GL?

 

[Ninakoru]

I often go first workshops then universities, is a matter of preference, but going straight education will net you more science if you feel you need to speed-up science at all costs.

GL is better than worker + library, specially with calendar researched, you can get philosophy for free and save many turns of research, and the science boost it great at that time. The problem is that is a higly desired wonder, opponents already have pottery, so even entirely focusing at it, con will miss it more often than build it. If you miss it, at that point you lose so much on the try is generally not advised.

 

[NukeAJS]

Food and science buildings. Build the science buildings sooner rather than later.

Maritime CSs too.

 

[Keirador]

If you plan on moving up in difficulty levels, just forget Great Library exists. Several (sometimes all) AIs beeline it, and they start with too many advantages for you to overcome under normal circumstances.

In fact, they're so busy competing for Great Library that even on Immortal or Deity, if you want Stonehenge or The Oracle, it's yours buddy.

More on topic:
Out-teching the AI is primarily about accruing more beakers per turn than your opponents. There are other factors, and different high-level players will put a different weighting on Research Agreements and bulbing Great Scientists, but getting the most out of these abilities rely on increasing your BPT, because their yield is based on a bpt average.

Raw science can be thought of as the sum of your total population, with each citizen producing 1 beaker per turn. Additional raw science is contributed by science specialists, who contribute an addition 3 beakers per turn (making a citizen working as a science specialist contribute 4 bpt total), certain buildings and wonders that offer flat bpt in addition to or instead of bpt modifiers, jungle tiles once you get Universities, and, perhaps most importantly, settled Academies that offer base 8 bpt before upgrades.

On top of this raw bpt you place modifiers. Libraries' +1 science per 2 citizens acts like a +50% modifier, but only for bpt from population. Universities are +33%, Research Labs +50%, etc., but by far the most powerful early modifier is the National College, which contributes 3 raw bpt plus applies a +50% modifier to your city. Since the National College can only be built in one city, and primarily modifies your raw bpt, it's important to stack raw bpt outputs in that city (probably your capital): mostly that means getting a high population in that city (through food trade routes if necessary), concentrating science specialists in that city, and putting down Academies in that city.

If possible, settle your Science City next to a mountain tile. That will enable you to build an Observatory, which is basically the +50% bpt power of a Research Lab, but available with Astronomy rather than Plastics.


So, if you've got a reasonably high population, you've got a designated Science City with the National College up as early as possible (around turn 50 is nice), and you're assigning Great Scientists and Science Specialists to your Science City, you should be doing fine.

The question, then, is which of these things you're not doing. What's your population look like? How about your modifiers and science buildings? When are you getting the NC up? What are you doing with your Great Scientists? Are you assigning enough specialists to reliably get Great Scientists? Figure out what you're missing and you should easily be able to outtech the AI on King.

 

[Andy06r]

Piggybacking on this thread. I struggle with my university timing but my libraries and NC is good.

I'm trying to make the jump to emperor myself, but my question is the gap between the national college and education. I do best with bottom-half production heavy liberty nations like Rome and the Iroquos with a detour to grab libraries and the NC early. I like to stack Stonehenge and the pyramids if my capital is hammer heavy and then run engineer specialists to pop GEs (never build a worker).

Now - workshops before universities? Or after? I typically grab philosophy and then skip the top half until I get currency, engineering, and metalworking. Often times I'll make an Iron based army and kill a few AIs with swords and composites.

Liberty finisher is a settled scientist. Is this a workable strategy that I can practice and turn into something workable at emperor?