How do you play in terms of tech trading?

[TaPele]

Do you have free tech trading, no tech brokering or no tech trading at all? Why?

If I have tech trading on, I only play with no tech brokering. However, I sometimes think that having tech trading on it turns the game into a kinda trading game. Though I do not know that much, I have the feeling that tech trading becomes essential to the game and if not done right you lose. I do not want it to be that important so I sometimes turn it of entirely, though I insist, I might be wrong on giving tech trading that importance.

What about you? How do you play and why?

 

[Heathcliff]

I use to have tech trading on, I think that was how the designers wanted the game to be played.
And yes the first thing I do EVERY turn is to press F4 and see what trades there are.

 

[Gumbolt]

I stick with normal rules. I won't trade for basic techs as you reach AI limit if they see you trade 10-12 techs with other AI. I normally only trade 1 for 1 trechs. Unless capitulation or peace deals. I often 1 turn techs like med/priesthood/archery/mono. If I do trade techs I will often put 1-2 turns research as Ai always trade at 20% discount to you. Techs like aplabet and monarchy can be good tech trades pending on your game.

So really only trade for techs you actually want that could not be teched in 1-2 turns.. If I get currency and I can spam trade a tech for gold I will often do this. 300-400 gold for a tech might push my science further. Obviously hold back on trading techs where you plan to build the wonders.

 

[sampsa]

Tech trades benefit the human player in general, but also make the diplomacy side of the game more important. I don't think you will lose if you fail to utilize tech trades, but it will make the game harder.

The trading game itself is hardly rocket science. If you are giving something away, give it to all your trading partners on the same turn (sometimes even gifting for diplo boost) or just hold, especially if you have monopoly on that tech. Sell old junk for or gift. People worry a bit too much about trading limit (WFYABTA) imo. Just get some AIs to friendly with religion, fav civic or fair trade. Though it's fair to say getting many very cheap techs like fishing, priesthood and so on via trade can hurt you later.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Honestly I feel the opposite. Tech trades seem to favor the AI a lot ore as the AI seems to constantly trade techs behind my back and yet won't trade with me unless I make stupidly lopsided offers.

 

[sampsa]

Tech trades seem to favor the AI a lot ore as the AI seems to constantly trade techs behind my back and yet won't trade with me unless I make stupidly lopsided offers.

There can be two reasons why you are being offered lopsided offers. One is that the AI has already invested into the tech in question, thus refusing to pay the full price. The second reason is that the "full price", is often around 70% of the actual value, but varying a bit, depending in for example how many civs know the tech. While this might sound unfair towards the player, I think it doesn't stop the human player from having a huge advantage in the trading game. The reason is that human player has much better control of what is happening and when. AI needs to follow strict rules on who to trade with (some AI will only trade at pleased+ for example), while the human player is not handicapped by his own diplomatic stance. You are able to sell a tech for 500 to someone who is furious towards you, np.

If these lopsided deals feel unprofitable, consider for example the following. You have met all 6 AI. You had a monopoly on say aesthetics, but last turn one AI (say Mansa) researched it. Now you need to choose whether to trade aesthetics around or hold it. Holding is a bit risky, because then Mansa can trade it around and you get zero benefit. Alternative is to trade it for IW with one AI, give aesth+poly for alpha with another AI, give aesth+poly for math with another AI, aesth for sailing with one AI and gift it for free the last AI. Thus you've gained over 1500 and some diplo points for a tech worth under 600. This is the type of trading you should be aiming for, even if some of them are lopsided in a vacuum. After access to currency it gets even more unfair, because you can sell old crap (say medi, poly, ph, mono) for 30 for several AI every turn, thus making money giving away basically nothing.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The math only works out that way if you know a lot of AI and they all have techs or gold to trade and like you enough to do it. In reality at least one of those is not going to be the case. Doubly so if you are playing on a difficulty level you find challenging. More often than not you'll find that the AI either has several techs you don't and has already traded it away to all the other AI leaving you in the dust or that they don't want to trade anything or don't have anything worth trading.

When ever tech trading is on I feel like the AI just constantly trades among them self leaving me in the dust to the point that I am convinced it is willing to make much more fair trades when talking to other AI.

 

[sampsa]

The math only works out that way if you know a lot of AI and they all have techs or gold to trade and like you enough to do it. In reality at least one of those is not going to be the case. Doubly so if you are playing on a difficulty level you find challenging.

I play mostly on the most difficult difficulty level and my experience is vastly different.

More often than not you'll find that the AI either has several techs you don't and has already traded it away to all the other AI leaving you in the dust or that they don't want to trade anything or don't have anything worth trading.

This indicates that your early game can be improved. Even on deity, AI shouldn't be leaving you in the dust and there are a few techs you should aim as a trading chip (aesth, CoL, philo, compass spring into mind) to jump back into at least tech parity.

When ever tech trading is on I feel like the AI just constantly trades among them self leaving me in the dust to the point that I am convinced it is willing to make much more fair trades when talking to other AI.

From what I understand, AI is willing to make "fair" trades with other AI that they wouldn't make with the human player. This is why the human player needs to get those trades first, even if only getting 70% of the "fair" value.

 

[Fippy]

Fair value is one of those myths, AI techs cost them less on high diff. levels so they are actually trading with the real value (from their perspective).

 

[sampsa]

Fair value is one of those myths, AI techs cost them less on high diff. levels so they are actually trading with the real value (from their perspective).

Ah, makes sense! This should make tech trading even more lucrative on lower levels.

 

[Gumbolt]

What level are you playing at @PPQ_Purple ?

On Immortal or below having tech advantage with good play is very possible. On Monarch and below you should be well ahead of the AI. You have advice from 2 strong deity players above. I mainly play on Immortal for fun and win most games.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I play modded and do not have a consistent difficulty level. Either way I am not what you would call a "professional" quality player. More like average and not too good. Mostly because frankly I play the game for fun and not as a challenge.

 

[Gumbolt]

Fair to say I probably am very routine led in my play. Many would do much less micro than me. For deity you need a high level of micro as the game is an actually very challenging. With some saves not even winnable. Where Civ 5 and 6 many can easily win deity. I think @elitetroops won his first attempt on Civ 5.

 

[jnebbe]

For deity you need a high level of micro as the game is an actually very challenging. With some saves not even winnable.

Do you have some starting saves of unwinnable uncooked deity maps? After seeing lain's game I'm wondering where you draw the line

 

[drewisfat]

Edited for clarity: Every map is winnable, but really bad ones are luck dependent.

 

[Nick723]

I haven’t played with tech brokering, but I play sometimes with tech trading on and sometimes when it’s off. I find it a nice change, you have to alter you play style to suit. I’m not sure which is easier / harder, I’ve had some mixed experiences. Somewhat counterintuitively I’ve found isolation NTT maps harder, but that may also just have been luck of the draw.

 

[Fippy]

It's very map & AI personality dependant imo
Obviously if we have Mansa + 2 peaceful AIs on one continent, while we sit on a landmass with warmongers..then no tech trading makes the game so much easier, not even comparable anymore.

If we are on a Pangaea type and AIs don't like each other much (Izzy hates everybody cos they are all heaten, Shaka declares on SB who doesn't trade much anyways..stuff like that), while we get a little something from all AIs, tech trading on becomes very powerful.

Diplo mostly means knowing how + and - points work. Overall don't be scared of trading with everyone, unless 5 AIs all hate one for example.
-4 for you traded with our worst enemy can always be offset by +4 our trades have been fair.
We can get +2 for open borders, +2 for resource supply. Reli bonuses can be huge too (see Izzy).

Some AIs still trade normally at annoyed (Cathy i.e.). But watch out for being worst enemy, no trades then.
Over time it can be memorized without constantly reading charts like know your enemy.

 

[ArchGhost]

Tech trades benefit the human player in general, but also make the diplomacy side of the game more important. I don't think you will lose if you fail to utilize tech trades, but it will make the game harder.

This assertion is 100% correct. Very astute grasp on the trading element of the game.

I have played few NTT games to completion simply because they are quite frustrating compared to everything you can do with the standard trade rules on -- leap up tangential parts of the tree, collect gold for old crap, deflect aggression, etc. I especially miss being able to take vassals and team up with them to reach Tanks or Space faster.

The AI doesn't really have a problem if it can't trade techs. It just bribes with the mass amounts of gold it accumulates on high difficulties, and self-techs everything almost as easily as before; mass proliferation of tech is reduced, but they are generally almost as fast in non-lovefest games with regualr trading.. It's really lame to see a 15 city FIN civ snagging Rifles+Grens+Cavs before you can finish Steel because he's a military flavor and beelined all that by ~1000-1100AD in an Immortal game. I know I suck with NTT where GPs are weaker, but don't need to rub in my face Ragnar!

People worry a bit too much about trading limit (WFYABTA) imo. Just get some AIs to friendly with religion, fav civic or fair trade. Though it's fair to say getting many very cheap techs like fishing, priesthood and so on via trade can hurt you later.

Honestly, in a normal trading game, the trade limit comes up frequently depending on your field of opponents (generally the militant and "evil" peaceweight guys hit the limit fast), but by the time it does, it rarely matters in my games as I am generally done relying on the AI for trades. By the time I am running up the Lib line toward either Curis/Astro/Communism depending on the game, I have long since stopped giving away tech to the AI as I'm far ahead of them on that path by that point.

Much more hurtful if when everybody on my continent refuses to tech Alpha past T130 because they're all playing pope...past T140 in one game. I was NOT happy.

 

[6K Man]

I turn off tech brokering. Gives me a lot more control over who gets what techs, when. E.g. if you trade or gift a tech to the fastest AI techer, that AI can't trade it to your enemies.

If I played on more challenging settings I might be hurting myself by not being able to trade techs I received from an AI. Haven't had that be a problem so far.

The REAL way to exploit the AI is with map trading post circumnavigation. AIs will pay hundreds of gold for a map they haven't seen, and the ones who are slow to explore will cough up 30-50 gold every few turns as your Caravel uncovers new land.

 

[qouigv93027]

I prefer no tech trading because it makes my civ's development feel more organic. Unfortunately this does remove certain options available for high-level play, but I don't play at those high difficulties myself.