How do you win as Hyborem

[Schmoe]

So, I decided to try out Hyborem for the first time. After starting a game as the Sheaim on Monarch, I summoned Hyborem around turn 210 (normal speed). But by that time the surrounding empires had way too much military for me to do anything useful, so I restarted on Prince in order to get my feet wet with Hyborem.

This time, I didn't beeline Infernal Pact quite as dramatically, and took the time to build the Sheaim into a respectable power before summoning Hyborem around turn 240. This time I was able to expand rather well with the starting army of just Hyborem +2 champions +1 imp. However, I've noticed a couple things that are odd:

* It seems like you only get manes to grow your city when evil units die, so you have a strong incentive to war against evil nations first. This is a problem if there aren't any evil civs left.

* Your starting economy is absolutely dreadful. In addition, starting location of Dis has a huge impact on being able to get an economy going (with towns). In this game, I started in the middle of tundra, which doesn't appear to have any Hell terrain modification and doesn't allow towns. Between tundra and ice, I only have about 8 workable plots in Dis and limited options for specialists, at least until I can get more research.

* Don't attack the Ljosolfar with Hyborem until AFTER he's used March of the Trees. Being surrounded by 42 million treants in the middle of elven territory is a recipe for disaster.

* If you tech up your starting nation to give a good head start to Hyborem, chances are your starting nation will be in a good position to dominate and much farther ahead than Hyborem. If you don't tech up, Hyborem starts off even more crippled because you can't make up your lack of research.

* Raising the AC is hard. It seems like building the Prophecy of Ragnarok in Dis is a good idea, so that you can churn out axemen to crank up the AC, but this takes time that you can't really use for warfare, putting you farther behind.

* The limited number of manes you get means you will have a very hard time growing more than a couple of cities. It seems like the policy should be "Capture only very large cities. Raze everything else." This, of course, means that there is a large amount of wilderness left over for other civs to expand into.

All in all I'm finding it difficult to come up with a winning strategy for Hyborem. The combination of limited city growth, extremely limited research, and small starting territory is proving to be quite a challenge. I've restarted several times and most recently have decided to launch my initial war against the [Evil] Calabim in hopes of getting more manes. I'll see how that works. In the meantime, does anyone have any tips for getting Hyborem rolling?

 

[Demus]

single city (1 major city) hyborem is extremely powerful. Delete most of your units in your old empire, leave some room for hyborem to spawn, and take over the AV holy city. Set up your capital in that city as soon as you're able, and turn god king. Every single mane you get should be pumped in that new capital, the first ones working useful tiles, the rest as specialists. If played properly, you can get a capital with over 200 population, and insane production+research. Unlimited specialist civics are a must for this.

 

[Chip56]

Also note:
new founded cities start with 3 pop for infernal.
It isn't necassary that YOU kill some evil guys it is only necassary that they die
-> entropy and death mana can be gifted to a evil civ, this makes it more likly that some good guys declare war on them
instead of razing cities you could also gift em to a EVIL civ
-> they produce units which will soon join your legions if you inflict some diplomatic mischief
If the bad guys lose its might be a good idea to join the war and protect their cities

 

[Schmoe]

single city (1 major city) hyborem is extremely powerful. Delete most of your units in your old empire, leave some room for hyborem to spawn, and take over the AV holy city. Set up your capital in that city as soon as you're able, and turn god king. Every single mane you get should be pumped in that new capital, the first ones working useful tiles, the rest as specialists. If played properly, you can get a capital with over 200 population, and insane production+research. Unlimited specialist civics are a must for this.

So the key to Hyborem is...

1.) Deleting all units from the summoning civ (very gamist, possibly exploitative)
2.) and running Liberty?

Hmm, seems strangely unsatisfying. Is there anything else that works well?

 

[Chip56]

1.) Deleting all units from the summoning civ (very gamist, possibly exploitative)

Or you could make sure that they are always at war with someone (if necassary declaring before you switch) and enjoy the manes you get.

2.) and running Liberty?

More likly gilds or theocracy

 

[Schmoe]

Or you could make sure that they are always at war with someone (if necassary declaring before you switch) and enjoy the manes you get.

True. And in fact, I did declare war just before summoning Hyborem. However, that's backfired as the Sheaim are walking all over the nearby Hippus and are spiraling out of control. It doesn't help if you spawn half a world away from the civ that summoned you. Still, this is a more palatable strategy to me.

More likly gilds or theocracy

Except that theocracy is in the same branch as god-king, so you can't run both. Theocracy is probably better once you get a ton of population, but it's more of a late-game strategy, because you need a lot of population to make up the difference.

And Guilds is pretty far down the research path, so again, it is a late-game strategy. But so is Liberty, for that matter.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

So, I tried some Hyborem the other day... I noticed something weird. If I play a few turns early, do some research and spread AV a bit first, once hyborem spawns I can immediately gift him any city I want etc.

BUT... I tried again saving right before he spawned and I couldn't give him anything. I wasn't sure if I needed 4 AV cities first or what, but for sure in some cases I could give cities and in others I couldn't.

Also ... in the game I was Elohim, top civ with most of the main continent. I had Basium summoned by Decius (good) Calabim next to me. As soon as I switched, I gifted Hyborem a bunch of cities on the west coast... then discovered that Hyborem loaded in a blank spot RIGHT in the war zone... it was in a clearing right at the border Decius had recently taken a city. Sigh. Right after that, the Elohim cast their world spell and I had to wait until their borders all expanded again and I was "squirted" out to the edge where my cities were.

 

[slowcar]

i win with hyborem on deity but don't succeed to summon him if the map is bigger then standard, and even then it depends on the civs and overall luck.
on immortal it is mostly possible to summon him, even on bigger maps.

deleting units is quite exploitative. a bit less is to switch to a different religion after starting to research infernal pact. as long as your old civ does not switch back this garantuees you rosier and the tome, making the start a lot easier.

most important techs are warfare (city raider) and Military Strategy (blitz for hyborem). you can use your sect of flies as attack troops if you have city raider but mainly hyborem is your one and only.
the next important tech is guilds or another tech that allows unlimited specialists, without them you are not really using the potential.

note that automatic cities do not work with infernals, you have to assign your citizens yourself as the city-AI tries to fullfill the need for food (and you don't need any food).
sometimes food is nice if you have conquest, but better decide it yourself.

depending on your start you should try to declare immediately. a weak civ is best, other then that choose one that is not able to swarm you as you don't have any units.
do not hesitate to settle on a bad spot and move the capital somewhere else a bit later, the city you add your manes to is your important city.
optimal is an evil civ of course, but mainly the target is to establish a production base and get some basic research back online.

troops to build are diseased corpses, back them up with ritualists as soon as possible. they can cure them and ring of fire is one of the most powerful spells in the game, especially when used in the defense.
all ritualists should get mobility asap, level a few of them to get high priests later.

a big problem in the beginning are huge numbers as they will overwhelm you. have enough troops with hyborem to counter any enemy attempts. as soon as he has drill4 he will take a lot less damage from enemy assaults and can singlehandedly defeat 20+ units if you weakened them with ring of flames.

i have a public immortal game on a large map with hyborem. the postings are in german but you can maybe get the meaning from the screenshots alone
Hyborem - Victory of Hell

 

[Zechnophobe]

Go with Guilds, not liberty. You want Engineers, lots and lots of Engineers .

 

[Schmoe]

Well, there's a lot to think about here. Looks like I'm off to try to get Guilds in my current game (as soon as I finish researching Warfare)!

 

[Pike the Hands]

About manes... raze everything, even bigger cities. You usually get a few manes even from cities with no evil religions present, and this will also raise the AC. Remember, Hyborem's goal is to destroy the world, not necessarily subjugate it. I never keep captured cities unless they have a wonder in them I want. If you find yourself needing still more manes to feed your war machine, just leave a civ alive long enough to build more cities, then periodically declare war and raze most of them. Kind of like farming.

 

[avalonnn]

* It seems like you only get manes to grow your city when evil units die, so you have a strong incentive to war against evil nations first. This is a problem if there aren't any evil civs left.

This is so true that it is actually coded into the AI strategy for Hyb. I forget where I read it, but Hyb AI will ask everyone to gang up on the weakest evil civ on the map. Hyb AI intentionally harvests manes.

 

[avalonnn]

Question: Do you fight with Hyb or try to preserve him like Barnaxus? And do you usually get AV heroes if you're Infernal or is it too late? Surely Mardero is possible, but Rosier usually not?

 

[Demus]

i find rosier usually gets taken by eighter my old civ, or one of the other AV civs. Mardero is very possible though. You def. fight with hyborem. Barnaxus is a relative weak hero, who can be taken out by 2-3 opposing units. Hyborem, expecially with fear, is a LOT tougher to take down, and can usually attack with 99% odds.

 

[Schmoe]

Question: Do you fight with Hyb or try to preserve him like Barnaxus? And do you usually get AV heroes if you're Infernal or is it too late? Surely Mardero is possible, but Rosier usually not?

It seems to me that you definitely want to fight with Hyborem ASAP. You want war, and you want units dying (on the other side). You can't do too much with just your starting army, so you really, really need Hyborem in the fray. Plus, he's immortal, so you don't even need to consider protecting him until he's died once.

As for the heroes, it looks like I've missed out on Rosier in my one game, but Mardero looks like a lock. I went for Guilds first instead of Malevolent Designs, on the suggestion of posters here, and that has been a tremendous benefit. Even if I lose Mardero for the side-trek to Guilds, it's worth it IMO.

 

[Caradoc]

So, I tried some Hyborem the other day... I noticed something weird. If I play a few turns early, do some research and spread AV a bit first, once hyborem spawns I can immediately gift him any city I want etc.

BUT... I tried again saving right before he spawned and I couldn't give him anything. I wasn't sure if I needed 4 AV cities first or what, but for sure in some cases I could give cities and in others I couldn't.

Also ... in the game I was Elohim, top civ with most of the main continent. I had Basium summoned by Decius (good) Calabim next to me. As soon as I switched, I gifted Hyborem a bunch of cities on the west coast... then discovered that Hyborem loaded in a blank spot RIGHT in the war zone... it was in a clearing right at the border Decius had recently taken a city. Sigh. Right after that, the Elohim cast their world spell and I had to wait until their borders all expanded again and I was "squirted" out to the edge where my cities were.

Elohim summoning Hyborem? Calabim summoning Basium? Is this Bizzaro World?

 

[avalonnn]

Elohim summoning Hyborem? Calabim summoning Basium? Is this Bizzaro World?

BTW -- you _can_ build the Mercurian Gate as Infernals, but you don't want to -- you end up declaring war on all of your allies, and they sometimes stop talking to you.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

BTW -- you _can_ build the Mercurian Gate as Infernals, but you don't want to -- you end up declaring war on all of your allies, and they sometimes stop talking to you.

How can your permanent ally stop talking to you?


Permanent allies are always friendly towards you, even when the actual diplomatic points breakdown should make them furious. He will declare war on other AV civs, but cannot break away from his ally. It is worth noting that the war script will only make him declare war on AV civs when he is not already at war with someone else; as his permanent ally, you can force him to stay too busy fighting the good civs to be able to declare war on AV civsl. You can still usually make peace with them pretty soon anyway, and even if you cant, fighting AV civs gives more Manes. You can also usually get Basium to give you his recently captured cities, which spreads AV to them and gets rid of the Order. (Although now that I think of it, I'm thinking you don't get Demonic Citizens from diplomatically, so this may not be the best idea.)



Oh, you meant your fellow AV civs sometimes quit talking to you, didn't you? Well, yeah, thats true.


(In case other readers don't know, you can't build the Mercurian Gate while of AV state religion, but you can switch to No State Religion, build it, and then switch out.)

 

[Zechnophobe]

So, I just recently played a few games with Hyborem. Here's how it goes:

Start: Hannah of the Lanun. She's the fastest early techer by a good long degree. I actually beelined Corruption of Spirit after fishing. I researched infernal pact on turn 129 of a standard speed game on Emperor difficulty. However, as playing Hyborem, I didn't even have education or Agriculture, so I think in the future I'd grab both of those before the switch, to make Hyborems economy a little more stable.

That said, playing as Hyborem was a piece of cake getting him this early. I kept my Imp fortifying Dis, and took my two Ironed Champions and two Ironed Longbowmen, and hyborem, and kill everyone while teching towards Military Strategy (For Conquest... when you grow only with Manes, then Conquest is *all* upside).


I also played a few games as Basium. Different strategy completely, it goes a bit more like:

Pop gifts of Nantosuelta first turn.

You want to get education, then Writing, then Fanaticism, in roughly that order. Maybe Mysticism before Education, but it depends.

Settle your first Great Engineer in the capital. Keep the second around... he's going to 1 turn build the mercurian gate. Get three settlers built somewhere before turn 120, and found three other cities. In one of them, start rebuilding your capital so that it finishes about the time you get fanaticism. Also make sure you put the great library in your initial capital.

Build the Gate in your original capital, which should have the great library, two scientists, and an engineer all stationed in it. If you got a free great prophet, put it in there too.

When you switch to Basium, convert said original capital, and you'll get a flood of great people, due to the massive amounts of GPP you have from the structures. Pick up order of Heaven if you can (Tell the Chirp to research it until it is 1 turn away, then tell them to research something else). That will found Order in your capital (Hopefully, someone else might get it before then).


My general summon turn for Basium was ~ 150 +- 10.

Go straight for Seraphs (Via the Rage Tech), and go hardcore military when you can.

 

[avalonnn]

I enjoy playing them more than I enjoy playing the infernals. My best set up was with a reasonable Altar of the Lunnotar plus the Order holy city. Also, you want to give the Mercurians a port if you're going to play them -- otherwise they may end up landlocked.