How does AI advance so fast in science?

[Thalassicus]

@The Boz
Leaders with a fast science rate like you describe usually have a small army or territory, so try knocking out their capital with some military units. I've designed VEM based on Theodore Roosevelt's phrase "speak softly and carry a big stick." A combination of diplomacy, military, research, culture, and everything inbetween is usually an effective strategy, like in the real world.


@albie_123
It depends on map size. Here's my thoughts from the features & tips page of the website:

These average map settings are tested with VEM. Games with different settings might not be as balanced.

• Continents or Pangaea (and their “Plus” versions)
• Small or Standard maps on Normal speed.
• Large maps on Epic speed.
• Default advanced game options.

 

[The Boz]

That approach was not feasible, they were on a different continent from me, and Germany, Mongolia, China and France never let me have a single turn of peace.

 

[Thalassicus]

Ahhh it sounds like you had some back luck with the warlike leaders on your continent, and peaceful ones on the other continent. Situations like that are much tougher than normal.

 

[The Boz]

Yeah, I don't think the Incans and Indians ever went to war with anyone. They were mostly just chilling, doing their own thing...

 

[Seek]

The overall AI science bonus ... was raised to 5% per difficulty per era (was 4%). I did this because I was getting feedback the game was too easy.

Is this per era from King? Prince and below should not have AI bonuses. From the sound of AlextheGr8's and the Boz's reports the AI is teching faster at the lower difficulties which strikes me as unfair to the less experienced VEM players. If the bar is set lower (ie, Warlord is the level at which the AI doesn't receive any bonuses) as I think may have been mentioned at one point, the tooltips when choosing a difficulty don't reflect this. I don't know if they can be amended though.

 

[Thalassicus]

The tooltips for Warlord and Prince just say "easy" and "normal". It's illogical for there to be only 3 comfortable handicaps (prince king emperor) when there's 8 handicaps available. I spread it out so people can fall more in the Warlord-Immortal range across 5 handicaps. This makes it easier to find a handicap which fits our skill level.

 

[Delgar]

Just to add my two tiny cents to this. I just finished a Prince vanilla game then started on a Prince VEM game, which I'm now halfway through. The disparity in tech advancement comes as quite a shock to me.

In Vanilla I was usually only 2-3 techs behind and then became the leader as the game advanced into the Industrial era and beyond.

In VEM, I am currently stuck in the Renaissance era while 2 or 3 other civs have gone into the industrial era. I am at least 10 or 11 techs behind the tech leader.

I'm not complaining, I'm just feeling amazed at how much more difficult VEM is!

 

[Thalassicus]

Out of curiosity, which version are you playing (general release or beta) and who is the tech leader?

 

[Delgar]

Out of curiosity, which version are you playing (general release or beta) and who is the tech leader?

Hey Thal, thanks for replying. I am not sure about the version, but I did download it from within the mods folder in the game itself two days ago.

Tech leader is either India and Siam at any given moment. Strangely, a couple of times Siam had "Afraid" status when talking to me, even though it was more or less on par with me militarily (but way ahead technologically).

I'm about 5th or 6th in tech, and there are 8 civilizations on the map.

I am going to try Warlord level to acclimatize myself to the mod

 

[Thalassicus]

Ah yes, India and Siam can get far ahead in tech. They typically have a weak and poorly-promoted military, however, leaving them very vulnerable to attack. If they're within a reasonable range, you might try some limited warfare against them (like pillaging their resources) to slow their research. Levies/skirmishers are fast and cheap units good for this task. They can earn the "survivalism" promotion, which lets them pillage without expending movement points.

The downside is it can brand you as a warmonger, which might reduce your diplomatic options. Even so it can be advantageous if one of those leaders seems like they might win the game.

 

[Delgar]

Indeed, I have just initiated war against Siam who are my neighbors. I see that as the only viable option (in this particular game) as there is no way I can compete on Science or Culture.

Cheers.

 

[wobuffet]

I've been throwing money towards RAs with tech runaways in my recent games, and trying to get alliances with them if possible.

I must say, it'd be nice to curb the perennial existence of one or two ridiculous runaway science leader Civs. 80% of the time, the balance is fine between AI civs and human civs in terms of beakers per turn and techs discovered, but there's always a Civ or two that somehow have 400–600 Science per turn when everyone else is hovering around 200.

 

[Thalassicus]

Runaways are a tricky thing to balance. If no AIs runaway in power, it's too easy for warmongers. If a civ does runaway, it's hard for peaceful empires.

 

[wobuffet]

Makes sense. It's too bad that the tech beaker cost formula (the one that makes it slightly easier/faster to research a tech that other Civs have already discovered) can't be adjusted (I assume?); I don't know why Firaxis made that tech spreading mechanic so weak, given that they went through the trouble of coding it.

 

[Thalassicus]

I believe that was only in Civ 4, and doesn't exist in Civ 5. This is why I made research agreements spread the tech gains 50/50. I like building it into a game mechanic like that, instead of directly giving science points.

 

[wobuffet]

It's not mentioned anywhere in the game, as far as I know, but there is some diffusion-like mechanic baked into the game. The formula is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10469954#post10469954

I think if you load up a game in progress (preferably one where you're not the runaway science leader), you'll see slightly different beaker costs for techs in the same column based on how many Civs have discovered each so far.

edit: This mod, which I haven't tried, seems to do something similar as well.

 

[Seek]

Indeed, I have just initiated war against Siam who are my neighbors. I see that as the only viable option (in this particular game) as there is no way I can compete on Science or Culture.

Cheers.

I've had to do this in both of my most recent emperor games, and it can be a little frustrating! On the other hand, it makes what otherwise would have been a boring, "end turn"-clicking endgame into something much more exciting.

@wobuffet - I've also wondered why the vanilla tech diffusion is so weak for a long time - it would be great if it could be modded stronger. Unfortunately, the Tech Diffusion mod you referenced is out of date and not supported any longer; I'd support implementing it into VEM, as well as the Liberation Boost and Tree Growth mods.

 

[Seek]

I must have missed it when it was implemented, but

Research

• Declaration of Friendship gives 200% rewards from research agreements and mutual open borders (was 150%).

from the 131 patch notes is almost certainly what's been causing the tech runaways we've been seeing recently: it's always a pair or small clique of leaders who must have DoFs spamming RAs. I don't know that we've come to a consensus as to whether this is a good or a bad thing, but I just thought I'd throw it out there that we might consider redacting this if we want a more even tech rate among civs.

 

[Zaldron]

Out of curiosity, which version are you playing (general release or beta) and who is the tech leader?

I know this wasn't directed at me, and I'm playing a higher difficulty (emperor) but in the latest beta (131.47) I'm between 5-8 techs behind 2-3 other AIs with the leader alternating between Hiyawatha and I believe Rameses (however you spell that). I haven't finished the game and I have a lot of cities getting up to speed so I have hopes that by industrial/modern era I'll catch up and even overtake.

 

[AlextheGr8]

So I'm playing the latest release v137 and wow, the AI is still just flying by in tech advancing. They don't have as much gold which is good, but they are just advancing so fast. is there anything I can try to change this? I'm only playing on normal difficulty.