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How does AI advance so fast in science?
- Thread starter AlextheGr8
- Start date
Delekhan
Prince
Question: Why can't we just use the same science balance scale as in GEM? No need to re-invent the wheel (haha).
stackpointer
King
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2013
- Messages
- 809
Yes, after a discussion with Expired, I realized that the scale must've been raised earlier due to poor AI performance in early beta. I've set the scale back to the old GEM scale.
Unlike what AnthonyG had mentioned, we had found the cause with actual feedback from Hreat and it was just a matter of figuring out the scale and scaling the numbers back.
Unlike what AnthonyG had mentioned, we had found the cause with actual feedback from Hreat and it was just a matter of figuring out the scale and scaling the numbers back.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I realized this is probably an unintended consequence of not updating the Yield Library after BNW. I thought I'd disabled all references to it, but it turns out there's a few bits of code still lingering around the project. I'm starting to think it will be better to just adapt the library to BNW so it can be used again.
I was hoping to fix the problems directly in the game core files, but it would be such a massive undertaking I just haven't been able to get the motivation to do it the "right way."
I was hoping to fix the problems directly in the game core files, but it would be such a massive undertaking I just haven't been able to get the motivation to do it the "right way."
stackpointer
King
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2013
- Messages
- 809
There will be a possible fix in 3.9.4 but you can disable it directly by following the instructions below:
Supposedy disabling AIperturnbonuses leaves the AI severaly hampered? Could the science bonuses be tuned down by editing the library instead? So these:
CAT\AI\CEAI_FixTables.lua:
I just started a game on King after reducing those AIResearch numbers for King significantly. Currently I'm in the classical era and clearly behind the average AI in tech. Maybe not as much behind as in earlier games, but time will tell whether there will be a runaway tech AI...
CAT\AI\CEAI_FixTables.lua:
Code:
Line 374: AIResearchPercent = 0, --HANDICAP_SETTLER
Line 375: AIResearchPercentPerEra = 0,
Line 453: AIResearchPercent = 0, --HANDICAP_CHIEFTAIN
Line 454: AIResearchPercentPerEra = 0,
Line 532: AIResearchPercent = 0, --HANDICAP_WARLORD
Line 533: AIResearchPercentPerEra = 0,
Line 611: AIResearchPercent = 18, --HANDICAP_PRINCE
Line 612: AIResearchPercentPerEra = 4,
Line 690: AIResearchPercent = 36, --HANDICAP_KING
Line 691: AIResearchPercentPerEra = 8,
Line 769: AIResearchPercent = 54, --HANDICAP_EMPEROR
Line 770: AIResearchPercentPerEra = 12,
Line 848: AIResearchPercent = 72, --HANDICAP_IMMORTAL
Line 849: AIResearchPercentPerEra = 16,
Line 927: AIResearchPercent = 200, --HANDICAP_DEITY
Line 928: AIResearchPercentPerEra = 20,I just started a game on King after reducing those AIResearch numbers for King significantly. Currently I'm in the classical era and clearly behind the average AI in tech. Maybe not as much behind as in earlier games, but time will tell whether there will be a runaway tech AI...
stackpointer
King
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2013
- Messages
- 809
The base science bonus will be reduced in the next build. More testing will be required in order to see if it solves the AI's early science bonus.
ExpiredReign
Deity
@tlaurila
Excellent work. That is exactly the type of effort the team needs to nail down this specific 'bug'.
stackpointer and I have been testing with the AIResearchPercent values set to 0 and looking to see if any observable difference occurs.
If you too could use those settings (they were the settings in GEM), and test for the AI running ahead in the tech race it would help a lot.
Excellent work. That is exactly the type of effort the team needs to nail down this specific 'bug'.
stackpointer and I have been testing with the AIResearchPercent values set to 0 and looking to see if any observable difference occurs.
If you too could use those settings (they were the settings in GEM), and test for the AI running ahead in the tech race it would help a lot.
Dunkah
Emperor
FYI I am stil playing vanilla. In my current game I am just entering the Reniasance era. Using Whowards version of Info Addict allows me to see that there is another civ on another continent that has 10 more Techs than I do already.
SO conclusion is that even in Vanilla (mostly) there are runaway Tech Civs.
my two cents.
SO conclusion is that even in Vanilla (mostly) there are runaway Tech Civs.
my two cents.
ExpiredReign
Deity
Just completed a couple more tests with the GEM values.
No change.
Even though I can produce the same sort of
as the others, there is still the chance I will be 2 to 4 techs behind after 50 turns.
Add to this @Dunkah's comment and it looks like there simply is no bug in the mod that affects the output of the player or boosts the AI to an extreme level.
It is just the way the cookie crumbles.
No change.
Even though I can produce the same sort of
as the others, there is still the chance I will be 2 to 4 techs behind after 50 turns.Add to this @Dunkah's comment and it looks like there simply is no bug in the mod that affects the
output of the player or boosts the AI to an extreme level.It is just the way the cookie crumbles.
Dunkah
Emperor
So started playing Communitas finally! (Posted this in Bugs Forum also).
(THIS IS A CUMUUNITAS GAME!)
Turn 37 I was in last place by 6 Techs
Techs Currently:
9 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 3(me)
Beakers Produced:
11 10 9 9 8 8 8 8 7 7(me in last)
----------------------------------------
Update Turn 74
Last place with 8 Techs. But I am 4 turns away from the great Library! (cross fingers).
Techs Currently:
14 14 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 8(me)
So I am still 6 Techs behind.
Beakers Produced:
20 17 16 15 15 14 14 14(me) 11 11
----------------------------------------
Update Turn 111
Last place with 14 Techs. Got the great Library! Still have two cities. so 1 other Library.
Techs Currently:
20 19 19 18 18(Atilla) 18 18 18 14(me) (1 player out).
So I am still 6 Techs behind.
Beakers Produced:
28 27(Atilla) 26 25 25(me) 24 22 21 14
----------------------------------------
Update Turn 148 (just for posterity at this point).
Last place with 19 Techs. Up to 4 cities, but still 2 libraries.
Techs Currently:
25 24(Pach) 24(Atilla) 24 24 23(Isab) 23(Cath) 22(monte) 19(me) (1 civ out).
So I am still 6 Techs behind.
Beakers Produced:
38 36 35(Atilla) 35(me) 33 32(patch) 30(Isab) 23(Cath) 22(Monte)
----------------------------------------
Update Turn 185 (just for posterity at this point).
Last place with 23 Techs. 4 cities, 3 libraries.
Techs Currently:
30(China?) 29(Boud) 29(will) 29(Atilla) 29(Pach) 27(Monte) 27(Isab) 26(Cath) 23(Me) (1 civ out).
So now I am still 7 Techs behind.
Beakers Produced:
91(China) 69(Boud) 51(Me) 48 (Will) 47(Atilla) 45(Isab) 38(Monte) 38(Pach) 17(Cath)
(THIS IS A CUMUUNITAS GAME!)
Turn 37 I was in last place by 6 Techs
Techs Currently:
9 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 3(me)
Beakers Produced:
11 10 9 9 8 8 8 8 7 7(me in last)
----------------------------------------
Update Turn 74
Last place with 8 Techs. But I am 4 turns away from the great Library! (cross fingers).
Techs Currently:
14 14 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 8(me)
So I am still 6 Techs behind.
Beakers Produced:
20 17 16 15 15 14 14 14(me) 11 11
----------------------------------------
Update Turn 111
Last place with 14 Techs. Got the great Library! Still have two cities. so 1 other Library.
Techs Currently:
20 19 19 18 18(Atilla) 18 18 18 14(me) (1 player out).
So I am still 6 Techs behind.
Beakers Produced:
28 27(Atilla) 26 25 25(me) 24 22 21 14
----------------------------------------
Update Turn 148 (just for posterity at this point).
Last place with 19 Techs. Up to 4 cities, but still 2 libraries.
Techs Currently:
25 24(Pach) 24(Atilla) 24 24 23(Isab) 23(Cath) 22(monte) 19(me) (1 civ out).
So I am still 6 Techs behind.
Beakers Produced:
38 36 35(Atilla) 35(me) 33 32(patch) 30(Isab) 23(Cath) 22(Monte)
----------------------------------------
Update Turn 185 (just for posterity at this point).
Last place with 23 Techs. 4 cities, 3 libraries.
Techs Currently:
30(China?) 29(Boud) 29(will) 29(Atilla) 29(Pach) 27(Monte) 27(Isab) 26(Cath) 23(Me) (1 civ out).
So now I am still 7 Techs behind.
Beakers Produced:
91(China) 69(Boud) 51(Me) 48 (Will) 47(Atilla) 45(Isab) 38(Monte) 38(Pach) 17(Cath)
I'm not sure if Dunkah's vanilla experience is necessarily related though. That could be a runaway civ on another continent for example, where we could expect a high tech haul advantage. (though to be fair, it's been a while since I've tried a straight vanilla game).
The problem we're seeing is if the AI civs get out ahead really, really fast early. It might very well be a vanilla + mod improved economy effect, but we could see what kinds of bonuses the AI is getting on science by default and evaluate whether any further bonuses are needed, or are effecting this.
The problem we're seeing is if the AI civs get out ahead really, really fast early. It might very well be a vanilla + mod improved economy effect, but we could see what kinds of bonuses the AI is getting on science by default and evaluate whether any further bonuses are needed, or are effecting this.
ExpiredReign
Deity
The biggest problem I see in the game Dunkah has posted is not the output, it is the techs behind it places him.
Without knowing what level this is and just which AI is where, it is difficult to pin down.
How are their cities setup?
Are they generating masses of GP points and pumping out GS units or are they specializing with specialists and Academies?
The variables involved in producing and getting techs are many. Focusing our attention on just the actual research may be short-sighted.
I'm still of the opinion that the AI get gifts of either techs or GSs to advance them.
I do find it strange that in both Dunkah's game, and some of mine, the Huns are one of the leading AIs. Who would have thought it?
EDIT:
Don't believe anything I say, I must be an idiot. See this post.
Set the AIResearch to 2000 to test (thanks stackpointer) and was blown away by the AI
output, it is the techs behind it places him.Without knowing what level this is and just which AI is where, it is difficult to pin down.
How are their cities setup?
Are they generating masses of GP points and pumping out GS units or are they specializing with specialists and Academies?
The variables involved in producing
and getting techs are many. Focusing our attention on just the actual research may be short-sighted.I'm still of the opinion that the AI get gifts of either techs or GSs to advance them.
I do find it strange that in both Dunkah's game, and some of mine, the Huns are one of the leading AIs. Who would have thought it?
EDIT:
Don't believe anything I say, I must be an idiot. See this post.
Set the AIResearch to 2000 to test (thanks stackpointer) and was blown away by the AI
After reducing the AIReserachPercent, in my Large/Epic/King I am getting the feeling I am keeping up a bit better with the AI. I am a couple techs into Classical and the leading two/thee AIs just made it to Medieval. I saw a huge science boost now that I got my 2 other cities up and running and I seem to be holding the gap more steady now. Let's see how it goes...
At the very least the AI should not be getting free starting techs if this is how early science seems to go now.
Just a wild hunch, but Could the AI be getting some science bonus on the palace? That would explain why the AI takes off in tech in the early game, for here we get 3 palaces and thus the AI would get thrice the intended bonus. The relative power of such a bonus would decrease later as population and number of cities grow. Thus, take off in the early game, but even out later. (Hard to imagine just how this would go, though, because Dunkah's numbers indicate it's not a bonus in beakers but techs)
I'll have to see later in the game how the lead AI is setup when I meet it (wide, tall). My neighbor Gandhi is 2nd in tech, and he is crunching out wonders at an alarming rate. I'm in a hurry to get my Legions outfitted with archer and catapult support to get to the job before they're out-dated...
At the very least the AI should not be getting free starting techs if this is how early science seems to go now.
Just a wild hunch, but Could the AI be getting some science bonus on the palace? That would explain why the AI takes off in tech in the early game, for here we get 3 palaces and thus the AI would get thrice the intended bonus. The relative power of such a bonus would decrease later as population and number of cities grow. Thus, take off in the early game, but even out later. (Hard to imagine just how this would go, though, because Dunkah's numbers indicate it's not a bonus in beakers but techs)
I'll have to see later in the game how the lead AI is setup when I meet it (wide, tall). My neighbor Gandhi is 2nd in tech, and he is crunching out wonders at an alarming rate. I'm in a hurry to get my Legions outfitted with archer and catapult support to get to the job before they're out-dated...
4 or 5 beakers in the early game is probably a few techs. I don't know if it's 5 or 6 techs when we have 3, but it's worth a lot. Witness the power of academies early on.
It definitely seems like it's related to an early game bonus + any additional AI bonuses.
If I recall correctly, the setup for VEM-GEM was to do little or no early game bonus (ideally) but introduce per era research bonuses for the AI to do catch-up growth and/or runaway growth as options as the game goes on.
It definitely seems like it's related to an early game bonus + any additional AI bonuses.
If I recall correctly, the setup for VEM-GEM was to do little or no early game bonus (ideally) but introduce per era research bonuses for the AI to do catch-up growth and/or runaway growth as options as the game goes on.
ExpiredReign
Deity
That is correct. GEM, and now CEG, has no bonuses on the AIResearchPercent but a small increase to AIResearchPercentPerEra.
Prince = 4%, King = 8%, Emporer = 12%, Immortal = 16% and Deity = 20%
Although, despite my assertions to the contrary, these bonuses do actually work, they don't seem to be the sole contributor to the AI advance through techs.
There surely must be some other factor at play.
The problem looks to be caused by extra science sources early on as they slingshot forward at an absurd rate. Possibly from the capital/palaces? It would have to be an early game effect.
I wouldn't think the per-era bonus would be the cause as they're per era effects that snowball upward rather than immediate bonuses.
I wouldn't think the per-era bonus would be the cause as they're per era effects that snowball upward rather than immediate bonuses.
My King/Epic/Large game with zero AIResearchPercent and AIResearchPercentPerEra has moved well into the Medieval era. It's by now obvious that the AI tech soaring has stopped. It seems I'm catching up in techs (and also conquered Gandhi who had 7 wonders and only about as many units). What seemed like a nigh-impossible-to-win game during Classical is now seeming to be almost too easy.
On a side note, a survey on Pointy Sticks came up recently in the game, and it seems like Attila has more than twice the sticks of the next-most-armed player. And four times my sticks.
On a side note, a survey on Pointy Sticks came up recently in the game, and it seems like Attila has more than twice the sticks of the next-most-armed player. And four times my sticks.
Last night I had a CEG game on Communitas map where I played Al Rashid and had an outstanding start. 3 Lux on my capital which needed just two techs to work, a nearby natural wonder, and two almost equally good settlement locations behind a shield of mountains. My neighbor was Askia and I prepared some spearmen early to ward off aggression caused by my explosive growth.
As I moved my forces towards his border to keep watch, I was startled. He had a half dozen Pike and a fair number of Composite Bowmen floating around his two cities. I was still something like 29 turns until even researching the tech for pikes.
A hundred and some turns passed as I used my excellent land to try to retake him. Eventually I amassed about 30+ war units including short swords, pikes, bowmen and catapults and attacked him. Moments later he finishes Alhambra and sets his nearest city (his Capital) to 38 strength. He was 1-shotting my pike with city bombards.
I'd like to be able to help solve this, but I'm not sure how. I don't know a lot about the game, but I do have a background in computer science. Is there any data points I can offer to help put a finger on what's going on?
If there's a way for me to snoop the AI cities/techs/et al., I'd be willing to do a turn-by-turn analysis and see what in-game factors are helping them snowball.
As I moved my forces towards his border to keep watch, I was startled. He had a half dozen Pike and a fair number of Composite Bowmen floating around his two cities. I was still something like 29 turns until even researching the tech for pikes.
A hundred and some turns passed as I used my excellent land to try to retake him. Eventually I amassed about 30+ war units including short swords, pikes, bowmen and catapults and attacked him. Moments later he finishes Alhambra and sets his nearest city (his Capital) to 38 strength. He was 1-shotting my pike with city bombards.
I'd like to be able to help solve this, but I'm not sure how. I don't know a lot about the game, but I do have a background in computer science. Is there any data points I can offer to help put a finger on what's going on?
If there's a way for me to snoop the AI cities/techs/et al., I'd be willing to do a turn-by-turn analysis and see what in-game factors are helping them snowball.
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