How does the AI keep trumping me in tech?

[dante alighieri]

Can someone explain how this happens to me in my games, because its kind of frustrating and this time I'm at a loss to see how it can be.

I'm France, I share a continent with Ethiopa, The Dutch, and Carthage. I thought I made all of the right moves, but I'm obviously wrong. I managed a decent tech lead at the start and watched carefully to see what moves I should make, like:

• 
  Built the great wall so the barbs would harass my opponents and let me build improvements in peace. I had stone, horses, iron and copper within my borders. I also managed to snag the pyramids and the oracle w/o hampering my economy and growth too much.

• Founded Confucianism, and spread it to my neighbors for the extra cash boost.

• I've traded fairly with my neighbors, but didn't make any of the lopsided trades the AI usually offers. Until my last few turns I was either pleased or friendly with all of them. I only gave into one threat, early in the game from Hannibal, to stave off an attack until my borders were more secure. (After the ten turn peace treaty he was pleased with me)

• Built the University of sankore and changed citizens into scientists for more beakers. I even built the Spiral miranet to get an economic boost to keep my science slider up.

• I kept a close look at the AI's discoveries and made trades accordingly, as to keep a lead or at least keep up.
  
  

Despite my efforts, I went from no.1 on the continent to last really quick. If my army isn't as powerful its because the others have all made incredible jumps in tech on me. Now granted, Ethiopa has a large kingdom compared to mine, but the dutch are in and I are relatively the same size and Hannibal is small. But they're all kicking my butt. One turn we're all in parity tech wise the next they all have 3 or 4 more than I even when I'm trading vigorously. Hey, I know the AI is going to trade with each other, but some of them had nothing to trade with yet they seem to be giving each other everything, but freezing me out. (it seems for no other reason than "I'm the human".)

I suppose they could have stolen a few techs from me, but i only got one notification that a spy had successfully stolen calendar. The other alerts were the ones about a spy being exposed. (the AIs do seem espionage crazy).

Its frustrating. I knew going in that my lead would probably evaporate, but it didn't. It went from high to zero in a matter of a few turns. Its as if the AI decided to just give itself a few techs to spite my efforts. One or 2 techs I don't have I can understand, but FOUR?! How can any of them manage to run science at a high level without crippling themselves? I made sure that I ran the highest science possible sometimes going into the red for a short while, and I worked on making sure my economy was paying off. Hannibal, for instance, started off fielding impressive stacks of swords and chariots. I figured I just needed a good enough army to defend, not attack, so I concentrated on libraries and temples etc. If he's building units, his infrastructer shouldn't be as good as mine, so I should be able to out tech him. But then suddenly he's making discoveries in a few turns that I can't. Willem Van Orange went from one or 2 techs behind me to a advancement juggernaut at the time when I when I was maxing my science. Whats the secret?

Another thing I don't understand is a few times the AI's would ask to trade to get iron or horses. Fine, but I saw them fielding swordsen and knights. Why do they want me to give them something they must already have?

I admit i'm notr the best player. I only play at noble level which i find challenging enough. Warlord is a bit too easy. Somewhere, somehow, I lost control of the situation. My basic approach must be flawed in some part, which was *build a good infrastructure, keep an economic lead and make good trades* .Somehow I screwed up and allowed the AI to get an upper hand. Or the AI is blatantly cheating. I'm not sure theres any cheating, so I could use a little advice. I've attached a saved game, but I'm sure an experienced player will find many errors I've probably made. Still, in my opinion I think I should at least be on an equal footing with the AI. Instead, i'm eating their dust.

 

[JujuLautre]

May I be honest?

Your cities are too much underdevelopped. For various reasons, some depending of each-other:
- they are too small
- they lack ressources
- they are badly placed
- they need improvements

At this rate, I don't see how you can keep up; I fear that your cities will be stuck at small sizes and without any specialization (you have a capital location which screems "cottages!" and at the same time you have almost only farms and mines).
At this point, I would build a few caravels, look for other civs, see if you can trade with them, and get astronomy to get more ressources. And get workers to improve the land as it should be (I did not check if you have enough of them)

Also, about ressources, you have a trade with zara to get pig while you have some in your cultural borders, and the same for fish with willem.

 

[dante alighieri]

By all means be honest. You're right. i think my overall philosophy was right, but my execution was awful. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Ammar]

Yes, your city placement is no good. Your main problem is food, the northern part of your empire has rather little. Yet you have managed to place your cities so that you miss out of some of your best terrain.

You have pigs east of your capital which is not in reach of any city. If you follow the river by your capital south you will see two floodplains which are wasted.

You also need to decide what to do with your cities. Build more cottages. If you use specialist do it so that they don't completely stifle growth. Look at Chartres for example. At your level I'd use more cottages than specialists anyway.

One last thing : chop the jungle around Marseilles. Your Ivory Camps would actually be decent tiles without the jungle. 2F,2P,2C isn't bad.

 

[dante alighieri]

I always have a hard time deciding between cottages or farms. I want the city to grow, but obviously I need to cottage more. . My northern city placement though, was more out of a need to box Hannibal in. At the time that I placed them he was fielding settlers southward. I guess I could have sent my sttlers south, but I thought it would be a bigger headache to clear out the jungle that was down there earlier in the game. It wasn't until later that I expanded to my south and that was to stop Willem from boxing ME in.

 

[MyOtherName]

By all means be honest. You're right. i think my overall philosophy was right, but my execution was awful. Thanks for the advice.

Well, (IMHO), not quite -- you have some good ideas, but your philosophy just seems to have missed the most important point.

I'm assuming your opening post describes what you thought you did that was most important in regards to your scientific research. While those things do help (some more than others, and some only conditionally), you omitted what is usually the #1 absolutely most important thing: how you developed and managed your cities.

And, sure enough, the others' analyses indicate that your cities were not well geared towards scientific research.

I'm not saying the "moves" you made were wrong -- they may very well have been very good things to do. I'm just saying that they aren't as important as you think they are.

I always have a hard time deciding between cottages or farms.

Well, for me, usually the decision is between cottages, mines, and specialists.

Anyways, the thing is that (at least in the early game) you shouldn't need farms to get food. Food is an important resource, and you do want to get lots of it... but the problem is that farms are usually a pretty bad tile improvement. So, you want to try and place your cities to get most (or all!) of their food from resources: pigs, corn, fish, et cetera. If you can do that, then you can use your citizens in more productive ways, such as mines, cottages, and specialists.

 

[Wlauzon]

At this point it is pretty hopeless. Too many other techs are just too far ahead, and you have not sent out any ships or explorers to make contact for any tech trading with many.

A lot of wasted land due to city placement. Not enough workers.

And farms are NOT a bad improvement. There are no bad improvemensts. It the locations that are bad. Just as a general rule, your safest cities should be the heavy food producers, and your capital almost never.

 

[dante alighieri]

At this point it is pretty hopeless. Too many other techs are just too far ahead, and you have not sent out any ships or explorers to make contact for any tech trading with many.

A lot of wasted land due to city placement. Not enough workers.

And farms are NOT a bad improvement. There are no bad improvemensts. It the locations that are bad. Just as a general rule, your safest cities should be the heavy food producers, and your capital almost never.

ARRRGH!!! They did it to me again!

I decided to start over, using Asoka. I like the fast worker UU. I'm on a continent with only the Chinese for company. Founded buddhism, spread it to Qin, and we got along famously. It wasn't difficult to outpace him techwise. I knew that it would bite me in the buttocks not having a lot of trading partners, so I once again tried to maximize my science rate. I also tried to place cities better and cottage more. (though in some situations I had to place more farms, because the city needed food.)

Anyway, I traded with Qin, trying to make sure I didn't lose my lead on him, when along comes Ragnar sailing up. He has a bit more tech than I do, but thats expected. He probably has a lot of people to trade with. then comes Stalin, same thing. I make a few trades to close the gap. Then Willem F###ing Van Orange AGAIN! He has a few techs I don't so we make a few trades. A few turns later I check on him...he's got like FIVE freaking more techs! How the heck does that work? He couldn't have traded them with Ragnar or Stalin because they didn't have them either. The only thing I can think of is that there are other civs with a huge lead that he traded with, but somehow I can't buy that. I didn't expect to be on parity with him right away, but I'm talking a giant lead, just like my saved game in the OP. Seriously, I need to know what he's doing that I'm not. How can the AI expand enough to be competitive while making a fast tech rate and not go bankrupt?

 

[Xhaine]

Well there are quite a few things that could provoke this
1- in your game you never had more food than anyone else (statistics) which means your cities are smaller and will continue to be so. Smaller cities invariably means less tech power
2-You all have comparable empire size and strength. But the dutch and the carthagineeans have financial as a trait which contributes to tech power
3-A scientist in everycity isn't the best road here. One or two well dedicated science cities will sufise (because with a library a university and a monastary every scientist yealds 5 6.3 if you have an academy or even 10under representation or 12.6 with an academy) This allows you to not build science buildings in everycity and spend th hamers on something better for the city. Furthermore having one or two cities with scientists invariably generates more great scientists. Which can be used to generate even more beakers

 

[Ammar]

ARRRGH!!! They did it to me again!

I decided to start over, using Asoka. I like the fast worker UU. I'm on a continent with only the Chinese for company. Founded buddhism, spread it to Qin, and we got along famously. It wasn't difficult to outpace him techwise. I knew that it would bite me in the buttocks not having a lot of trading partners, so I once again tried to maximize my science rate. I also tried to place cities better and cottage more. (though in some situations I had to place more farms, because the city needed food.)

Anyway, I traded with Qin, trying to make sure I didn't lose my lead on him, when along comes Ragnar sailing up. He has a bit more tech than I do, but thats expected. He probably has a lot of people to trade with. then comes Stalin, same thing. I make a few trades to close the gap. Then Willem F###ing Van Orange AGAIN! He has a few techs I don't so we make a few trades. A few turns later I check on him...he's got like FIVE freaking more techs! How the heck does that work? He couldn't have traded them with Ragnar or Stalin because they didn't have them either. The only thing I can think of is that there are other civs with a huge lead that he traded with, but somehow I can't buy that. I didn't expect to be on parity with him right away, but I'm talking a giant lead, just like my saved game in the OP. Seriously, I need to know what he's doing that I'm not. How can the AI expand enough to be competitive while making a fast tech rate and not go bankrupt?

Post the save and we'll take another look.

 

[dante alighieri]

Post the save and we'll take another look.

I'm on another PC right now, so I don't have access to the save. But i'm fairly sure I screwed it up. I seem to be able to come out strong in most games at the start but i lose it by the middle ages. I think some of the reasons are this...

• As soon as I meet AI civs I concentrate on cutting them off or claiming a resource without making sure that city is going to be able grow properly instead of crapping out by 1300 AD.

• I don't keep in mind the traits of my opponents or my own traits. I.E. Willem's financial trait, as someone pointed out. It makes sense that he'd be able to fuel more cash into science because his trait allows him to make more money. Just because it says 0 gold in the trade screen doesn't mean he isn't funnelling it all into science at 80, 90 or 100%.
• I have a hard time balancing out how many farms or cottages to place.

 

[MyOtherName]

I have a hard time balancing out how many farms or cottages to place.

You build exactly as many farms as you need.

If your city needs 5 farms to do what you want it to do, then you build 5 farms.

If your city needs 2 farms to do what you want it to do, then build 2 farms.

If your city needs 7 farms to grow as fast as you want, but only 3 farms to do what you want it to do, then build 7 farms and then replace them when your city nears its full size.

 

[Aristos]

Play with No Tech Trading. It's a pleasure, especially in higher difficulty levels. And it does not make the game necesarilly easier; on the contrary, if you ask me. I am trying my way in Emperor now (busted so far every time), but decided to go the No Tech way from now on, because it makes the game more "realistic". I hate to see everyone with rifles in 1300 AD. It may seem to cripple the AI, but the human can't also exploit the Tech whoring path, so in the end it balances itself. Plus, at higher levels the AI bonuses more than make up for the "alleged" AI disadvantage because of No Tech Trading.

Try it. You may like it as I did. Oh, and add to that Aggressive AI so you can't "dictate" the terms anymore (most of the time the AI does in that setup), and you have a very nice combo there...

my two cents,

P.D.: Oh, and it gives also more weight to other stuff like diplomacy, long term strategy, prioritizing... no more buying Bouddica with one lousy Tech to help you fight Montezuma! You really have to take care of your embassies now... and the Tech tree shows differences from Civ to Civ as a result of each civ prioritizing different paths.

One important tip: if you use No Tech Trading, make sure you also use Random Personalities so you can't "preknow" what each leader will prefer in terms of the tech tree.

enjoy!

 

[The Snug]

Build farms, ignore cottages. A big city is worth 4 small ones.

 

[deviantX]

Build farms, ignore cottages. A big city is worth 4 small ones.

What?! The blasphemy.

 

[dante alighieri]

So, I started a new game again, and as the Native Americans I don't think I'm doing that badly so far. I share a continent with Pacal, Frederick and Isabella. Izzy, of course will DOW on me sooner or later. I'm trying to expand and keep a good tech rate, but I'm probably doing the same things i always do that leads to my demise....

i've posted my last save. Its late here, so I have to go to bed. I'd appreciate any suggestions anyone might have.

 

[Aristos]

Build farms, ignore cottages. A big city is worth 4 small ones.

It's true... in the long term. It doesn't qualify as a blasfemy, but... HUGE but: only of you survive long enough to get the payoff of a big city instead of 4 small ones.

 

[JujuLautre]

So, I started a new game again, and as the Native Americans I don't think I'm doing that badly so far. I share a continent with Pacal, Frederick and Isabella. Izzy, of course will DOW on me sooner or later. I'm trying to expand and keep a good tech rate, but I'm probably doing the same things i always do that leads to my demise....

i've posted my last save. Its late here, so I have to go to bed. I'd appreciate any suggestions anyone might have.

Well, that's a little bit better; you 2nd and 3rd city are better placed, and you built some improvements. But:
- you did not solve your hapiness problems, so your cities are still stuck to small sizes
- being small, your cities don't work too many tiles, so improving everything around them is useless
- you don't have enough cities. 5 cities including a new one at 1040AD with a huge chunk of lnd like the one you have is just unacceptable.

How to make things better in the future:
- adopt the 60% rule: expand if you are at 70% science, stop at 60%
- build near ressources: each city should have at least one food ressource in its fat cross. Get as many *different* ressources as possible. get the others through trade. Solve your health and hapiness problems. Hereditary rule is a blessing. Ressources in your cultural borders are good, but ressources in your cities fat cross is better.
- give your cities enough food: count the food for every tile, and check how much farms you need to attain
- specialize your cities: your second city should be a production city. It will receive nothing but growth and production improvements
- build new production cities later. Something like 1 prod city for 4 commerce cities.
- all the other cities should be commerce cities. Build the necessary food improvements, and then cottages. Cottages. Cottages. And work them !

These are VERY basic rules, but by following them you should be able at least to developp your cities and your empire. Later, you will learn how to relax them.

 

[Wlauzon]

Play with No Tech Trading. It's a pleasure, especially in higher difficulty levels.

I much prefer no tech Brokering. That way you can still trade, but the other civs won't trade off YOUR techs - so you can get as many as 4-5 trades for ONE of your techs.

 

[Aristos]

I much prefer no tech Brokering. That way you can still trade, but the other civs won't trade off YOUR techs - so you can get as many as 4-5 trades for ONE of your techs.

yeah, I tried that before going full No Tech. To be honest, it did not stop the whole "tech whoring" exploit that much... especially in higher levels. More or less, the AI's still trade techs like whores, and you are pretty much forced to do the same. The result is only that the timelines and time windows are compressed like crazy, which destroys the flavor of the whole tech-researching part of the game in my opinion...

So, I insist, in my experience No Tech Trading gives a much richer game in higher levels (don't know about <Monarch, but should be the same).