How to end govt corruption?

Narz

keeping it real
Joined
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My incentives under communism thread kinda going in circle, mostly my fault probably for starting w an unrealistic hypothetical.

Seems like the 1 area of agreement is that government corruption is a large part of why we can't have really nice things.

So how to we stop that? I remember in 08 Obama talking quite a talk about transparency in govt, I thought it sounded really good but that didn't really happen (because he didn't really mean it or because he couldn't actually do it who knows)
 
Get rid of the government
 
Corruption is one of those terms that needs more explanation.

Suppose: a new highway is being built and the construction workers’ union demands all the jobs go to union labor. In exchange, the union promises to endorse candidates who vote for the pro-union highway bill. Is this corruption?

Suppose: the above-mentioned highway is routed to travel through more constituencies than would otherwise be necessary. Is this corruption?

Suppose: a defense contractor has a new missile system, but to get funding for its program the company needs to agree to build its manufacturing plant in an economically-depressed area, but the government will give a tax write-off for building a new plant. Is this corruption?

Everyone hates corruption and waste, but my spending isn’t that—it’s promoting strong defense! The regional economy! The national welfare!
 
Obama also underlined the problem of too much centralization in political power. (leading to corruption but more generally to inefficiency)

Having a single individual (mister president) bear the ultimate responsibility on so many different issues is not realistic, especially in modern times.

So... Even the distribution of political power?
 
Corruption is one of those terms that needs more explanation.
Here's my answer: Corruption = inefficiency = waste of resources, in perspective of the common good of course.

It's another debate whether war machines fit with common good.
I understand you believe they do.
 
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My province is run by a gang of thugs that call themselves the United Conservative Party.

The most polite name I've seen for them in the comment section of my news site refers to them as the Clown Posse.

My own name for them is the United Corruption Party.

Candidates promise transparency. That goes out the window as soon as they're elected.
 
It's another debate whether war machines fit with common good.
I understand you believe they do.
What I think about defense procurements is immaterial: I could have easily made the case be about VCRs or widgets or hamburgers—the reason I chose a missile system is because the government is far more likely to be involved in providing the funds for that rather than an ordinary consumer good.
 
Obama also underlined the problem of too much centralization in political power. (leading to corruption but more generally to inefficiency)

Having a single individual (mister president) bear the ultimate responsibility on so many different issues is not realistic, especially in modern times.

So... Even the distribution of political power?
States' rights are for rasists... or something something. So they tell me. They're probably just sucking from the corruption teat.

While distribution of power undoubtedly helps some, in that individual parts corrupt at different rates and potentially competition can pull them back in some fashion, maybe, it's not like Illinois is a bastion of non-corruption relative to the nation. A 90+ year old newspaper woman just died from the stress because some local podunk should-be-swinging-from-a-tree politician(in Nebraska was it? Kansas? One of the plains states) ordered a political retribution raid on her house because a reporter investigated something that made him look bad.

I don't think corruption "fixes." To quote a better man, "Politicians and diapers should both be changed regularly and for the same reason."
 
You are saying it's the exercise of power that corrupts. I don't think so.

I think it's the exercise of unfair amounts of power that corrupts. This can be fixed.
 
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The government, by necessity, holds life and death power over people. It holds the power to take homes, destroy livelihoods, just pester and make people miserable if targeted... all things required for it to function. That's enough to do it. But yes, less limits the damage in some ways. If you compare to the totalitarians.
 
Indeed the power to annihilate is a very interesting one.
 
Get rid of the government

Here's my answer: Corruption = inefficiency = waste of resources, in perspective of the common good of course.
I think it's a good quote I'd also add putting self-interest above the duties of your job (taking bribes, being lazy or having flippant disregard when your laziness or disregard causes damage to those you serve.
 
It's hard to judge the line between self interest and duties toward the common.

Rigid hierarchies and secrecy of decisions are the real issues here, as brilliantly pictured by @Valka D'Ur
 
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Corruption is a class issue. The operation of government under most Western regimes means an enmeshment of private, capitalistic interests with those of the state. Americans would be familiar with the various lobbying scandals that come out now and then; that is by no means extraordinary, but quite literally, part of business. If we take the infrastructure example - highways - a little back - to railroads - we can see just how easily influenced the governments of various countries were by the sweet-talk (and money-talk, more importantly) to build the railroads in a highly specific way - not to also mention immense land speculation off which parts of the government also fabulously benefit from. Here, we can see clearly the ways that private interest, and specifically, the private interest of profit, pervert any kind of a state that may desire to improve the 'public good'. Since individual capitalists at present have more power in their hands to exert influence over a democratic legislature, they get their way ahead.

(On a positive note: I am happy to see that it appears OP has not been bitten by the orientalist bug that countries in the 'undeveloped' world are somehow more, 'uniquely' corrupt than those in the so-called 'developed' world. It must be that the corruption necessary to maintain the day-to-day Anglophone states afloat is becoming impossible to ignore.)

You may be asking, what's the solution? Simple: disempower the private profit interest.* That may not quite so radical as it may sound; even capitalistic states, in times where deep crisis and unrest appear to face them, engage in what can be only called an emergency brake upon private profit. This can be direct - e.g, eminent domain seizures and nationalisations, or indirect - funding for various, supposedly superfluous things such as education, healthcare, welfare, and all that. However. It is merely an emergency brake, and so the train of profit - to extend this metaphor perhaps beyond what's permissible - must go on, and the history of the entire late 20th century is the breakdown and destruction of the social-democratic bargain that the 'developed' world has created for itself. Which returns us from where we came from. I do not want to stop the train. I want to derail it into the ditch and run a train carrying passengers.

*Immediately, geniuses will leap at me and say that the USSR and PRC have had corruption. To this I must plead guilty; it is true, historical fact. It's also somewhat irrelevant; both of those states were, by their own self-admission, in the process of transition. They were on the path of trying to disempower private profits, but both have failed, to quite lethal consequences in the case of the USSR. An uncontrolled black market created by erroneous policies resulted in the formation of a devastating class of people who have ended the USSR. It may be a cautionary tale for those who throw in just a bit too much corruption in their states, though.
 
Lol corruption predates capitalism. Corruption mostly a cultural thing mixed with government institutions, good faith or lack of it and enforcement.

" If I don't steal
It someone else well".
 
Lol corruption predates capitalism. Corruption mostly a cultural thing mixed with government institutions, good faith or lack of it and enforcement.

" If I don't steal
It someone else well".
Aleks never implied otherwise.

The way that corruption worked under Feudalism or the Roman Empire is hardly relevant to the topic at hand.
 
Aleks never implied otherwise.

The way that corruption worked under Feudalism or the Roman Empire is hardly relevant to the topic at hand.

More the comments about the USSR. The corruption was there right from the get go. Party officials ate well during the siege of Leningrad.
 
More the comments about the USSR. The corruption was there right from the get go. Party officials ate well during the siege of Leningrad.
*Immediately, geniuses will leap at me and say that the USSR and PRC have had corruption. To this I must plead guilty; it is true, historical fact.
We get it Zard, the word "USSR" compels you to respond. Absolutely fine. However, might I suggest that gay_Aleks already predicted this, put in a giant disclaimer, and yet you felt the need to claim otherwise?

Find a different bugbear! There's so much in this thread beyond historical references to a past regime.
 
We get it Zard, the word "USSR" compels you to respond. Absolutely fine. However, might I suggest that gay_Aleks already predicted this, put in a giant disclaimer, and yet you felt the need to claim otherwise?

Find a different bugbear! There's so much in this thread beyond historical references to a past regime.

And I'm the one who gets accused of revionism?
 
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