How would you design nomadic Civilizations?

1) I'd make some civs (obv Mongols + like two from among Scythians, Huns, Turks, Cumans, Manchus, Tatars, whoever else set) have special nomadic rules for first few eras of a game, but you have to settle in cities by the late midle ages bc you need universities to develop higher science. And there is a tradeoff between benefits of longer nomadic period vs earlier city settling since late classical era.
Late Middle Ages is not a must for these cultures, since ancient age many waves of nomadic cultures conquered (or ordered to build) cities and bacome the new ruling class but slowly turning sedentary also.

Not even the Mongols had a significative empire without use the cities they conquered and the palaces they needed to built. "European Huns" were an example of the failure of a "pure" nomadic empire, while the "Eastern Huns" actually installed proper empires.

If any "nomadic" civs just need a relocalizable "Horde Camp" improvement that could exploit resources like cattle, horses, sheep, etc. While also produce militar units. But proper cities would still be an option for them.
 
One thing I am wondering about.

In real life steppe horse nomads were a powerful part of history because of a particular geography of our world, where you have open steppes and deserts stretching from independent Ukraine through half of Asia to Manchuria. They have ruled across vast lands with very few mountains and forests, which were also awful for agriculture and no settled civilization could truly colonize them before industrial revolution (also advanced firearms were necessary to break horse archers power). An enormous particular part of our world just happened to be their heaven, but what if between Ukrainian Donbas and north west China there was an ocean. They weren't exactly flourishing across the world outside of "steppe Eurasia" (Bedouin Arabia had one spectacular expansion fluke and then returned to backwater immediately).

What am I trying to say, is that nomadic empires don't make sense on many randomly generated civ maps, even besides horse availability. There is no reason why should they exist on archipelagos, on heavily hilly/mountainous/forest maps, or on very agriculturally fertile areas, where settled cultures crush them with numbers and cultural output. Powerful nomadic empires in civ should make sense in a context of the map.

Personally if I'd design civ7
1) I'd make some civs (obv Mongols + like two from among Scythians, Huns, Turks, Cumans, Manchus, Tatars, whoever else set) have special nomadic rules for first few eras of a game, but you have to settle in cities by the late midle ages bc you need universities to develop higher science. And there is a tradeoff between benefits of longer nomadic period vs earlier city settling since late classical era.
2) When generating a new map, game checks if according to rules it allows on its own "steppe Eurasia" zone/zones
3) If it does generate them, it assigns them civs with aforementioned 'nomadic' token

Good Points, but in regard to the geography, you're only half right. The central North American prairie an the Argentine South American plains (pampas) also became prime horse country, but developed no history-changing pastoral states or cultures because they had no horses to go with the wide plains. It took bot the geography and the biological resource to create the 'perfect setting' for pastorialism.

And Pastorial Culture was transient. The earliest cultures on the central Eurasian plains moved there before they had ridable horses - they hunted and later raised horses for food, along with sheep and cattle, but confined themselves (from the archeological evidence so far) to the broad river valleys and didn't move around much - until they discovered how to ride horses and, very early, developed saddles and riding tack,. Then, and only then, did they start moving onto the Great Plains between the rivers, hauling their worldly goods in solid-wheeled carts and wagons and following their herds on horseback.
The lifestyle also made every adult a potential bow-armed mounted warrior, which is what gave their relatively small populations compared to the city-dwellers their enormous military effect and ability to dominate comparatively huge areas.
But, summarizing, the pastoral horse-nomad existed only from about 4000 - 3700 BCE to 1500 CE - a "Neolithic Start" for Civ VII would NOT include a Pastoral Start option but only the potential to develop into a pastoral Civ if you have the combination of open plains/grasslands and Horse Resource.

Its another reason why I think the option to choose some of your Civ's Uniques only after you see your Starting Position is a good one: having a Horse Archer Unique on a horseless Archepeligo or in the middle of a massive rain forest is both senseless and frustrating.

Climate change already starts too early in Civ6; if it's hitting when there are still nomadic civs in Civ7, they've done something terribly wrong.

On the contrary, Climate Change starts much too late. There is evidence for Hemispherical if not World Wide climate effects since the last Glaciation period, and some of them locally Catastrophic, like the drying up of the Sahara in 5 - 4000 BCE or the 'Little Ice Age' of the 16th - 17th centuries CE, Agriculture may have been introduced to Europe by the migration of farmers complete with herds of dairy cattle out of Anatolia when that region and most of the Middle East went into a centuries-long drought after the Lake Ojibwey Event in 6200 BCE.
Basically, a Neolithic Start for Civ VII should include some Major Fluctuations in the terrain parts of the game map due to 'local' (less than 50% of the map) climate events and condition changes, even if the game does not include Catastrophic Changes like the submerging of Doggerland or filling up of the Black Sea, both of which occurred after 10,000 BCE.
 
On the contrary, Climate Change starts much too late. There is evidence for Hemispherical if not World Wide climate effects since the last Glaciation period, and some of them locally Catastrophic, like the drying up of the Sahara in 5 - 4000 BCE or the 'Little Ice Age' of the 16th - 17th centuries CE, Agriculture may have been introduced to Europe by the migration of farmers complete with herds of dairy cattle out of Anatolia when that region and most of the Middle East went into a centuries-long drought after the Lake Ojibwey Event in 6200 BCE.
Basically, a Neolithic Start for Civ VII should include some Major Fluctuations in the terrain parts of the game map due to 'local' (less than 50% of the map) climate events and condition changes, even if the game does not include Catastrophic Changes like the submerging of Doggerland or filling up of the Black Sea, both of which occurred after 10,000 BCE.
You're right, of course, but I meant specifically anthropogenic climate change. (I've heard theories connecting the Little Ice Age to deforestation in Europe, but I don't think that has a lot of support.) As much as I'd like to see it in certain ways, I'd be afraid that natural climate change would ultimately feel arbitrary without the ability to carefully simulate climate, which, of course, requires a network of supercomputers. The game needs some shakeups, but no one likes being at the mercy of the RNG gods.
 
Represent climatic change since early game would be historicaly correct but I think would be gameplay problematic.

Just Ancient Era alone covers maybe a bigger amount of chances than almost all the rest together, and Ancient Era already is supposed to be the exploration and settlement era in gameplay terms, there is not point to represent these biome changes if the players would be struggling with huge changes each few turns. Also these changes would be natural, unrelated to player actions so they would feel as an unjustify punishement.

On the contrary late game climatic change add something to shake the boring late status quo and are related to players decisions about industrialization and environmental management.
 
to make climate change less random, at the very start of the game make there be set climate changes

what this means is, for example in Humankind's 15,000 BCE start date- the world would be covered by tundra and ice. Over time, the ice would melt, eventually raising sea levels. SO the player is motivated to migrate across continents to find warmer places. And after this (8000 BCE to 4000 BCE) the biggest desert on the map begins to shrink and turn into all the way a savanna...and then it turns into a massive desert again. The game finds this by counting how many tiles of desert in one region.

afterwards, climate change conditions are rarer, and less common. they would still push nomadic players to migrate in places just in case they live somewhere in Siberia and it gets colder.
 
One thing I am wondering about.

Personally if I'd design civ7
1) I'd make some civs (obv Mongols + like two from among Scythians, Huns, Turks, Cumans, Manchus, Tatars, whoever else set) have special nomadic rules for first few eras of a game, but you have to settle in cities by the late midle ages bc you need universities to develop higher science. And there is a tradeoff between benefits of longer nomadic period vs earlier city settling since late classical era.
2) When generating a new map, game checks if according to rules it allows on its own "steppe Eurasia" zone/zones
3) If it does generate them, it assigns them civs with aforementioned 'nomadic' token


Really good idea. A civ's development should be highly influenced by the environment
 
climate change was a factor in the fall of the roman empire- which happened at the end of the Classical period
I already clarified I was talking about anthropogenic climate change and why I think modeling natural climate change is a bad idea from a gameplay perspective, as compelling as it could potentially be. Also any discussion of the fall of the Roman Empire requires a constellation of asterisks.
 
You're right, of course, but I meant specifically anthropogenic climate change. (I've heard theories connecting the Little Ice Age to deforestation in Europe, but I don't think that has a lot of support.) As much as I'd like to see it in certain ways, I'd be afraid that natural climate change would ultimately feel arbitrary without the ability to carefully simulate climate, which, of course, requires a network of supercomputers. The game needs some shakeups, but no one likes being at the mercy of the RNG gods.

Agree. There's no evidence that humans had any appreciable impact on climate before the last half-century or so - but lots of evidence that climate had great impact on human societies. The Little Ice Age probably had little effect on forestation or lack of it, because forests are by nature slow-growing and the LIA didn't really last long enough, but as Geoffrey Parker pointed out in a massive volume, it had world-wide effects on human politics: the extra stress on food production caused by weather variations caused people to react by blaming their leaders, not their Gods, and in societies as different as East Asia, western Europe, Ottoman Turkey and Aztec Mexica there were massive political upheavals.
- And that's really the model I'm looking at for the game: extra stress on the player which can be answered by various mechanisms (notably, Japan during the LIA had almost no upheaval because they had a handy food surplus and so had no stress on their political or cultural 'systems') but keep (especially the human player)
from getting complacent at any time in the game . . .

climate change was a factor in the fall of the roman empire- which happened at the end of the Classical period

Less climate change than 2 massive Plagues in a single century that may have killed a third or more of the population, which reduced manpower available for the army, agriculture, and everything else. Disasters on that scale are why I don't think a 'Plague mechanic' is a good game mechanism, since there was absolutely nothing that anybody could do about it before the modern era.
 
- And that's really the model I'm looking at for the game: extra stress on the player which can be answered by various mechanisms (notably, Japan during the LIA had almost no upheaval because they had a handy food surplus and so had no stress on their political or cultural 'systems') but keep (especially the human player)
from getting complacent at any time in the game . . .
Yes, I agree. The problem is convincing players who want "ever upward momentum" that setbacks and complications are good for storytelling. (Of course, these are probably the same players you have to convince that 4X games have an emergent narrative...)
 
Yes, I agree. The problem is convincing players who want "ever upward momentum" that setbacks and complications are good for storytelling. (Of course, these are probably the same players you have to convince that 4X games have an emergent narrative...)

I am more and more convinced that the answer might be to tie "Victory" in the game to In-Game Events - how you are doing turn after turn - rather than the End Game Situation, which requires the entire game to be aimed at the last turn.
So, you could earn 'Victory Points' by simply persevering, or overcoming heaps of adversity in the form of bad terrain, bad climate, disasters, etc - which could be reflected in in-game systems like Newspapers or Sagas/Historical Works (generate a Great Work of Narrative by in-game events and player reaction to them?), and make the events wide enough and varied enough in scope to avoid the simple Always Upward Or Bust that we have now.
After all, one of the things I commented on in the Humankind pre-release VIP forum was that in many historical cases, the losers of a battle won more Fame than the winners: think of Thermopolye or Cameron in which the losers were wiped out on the field but became Immortal and created Legends, or Borodino, which although a definite Russian tactical defeat is considered one of the three great Field Battles of Russian military history.

Place the 'Winning the Game' Emphasis not on a Final Victory but on creating a Narrative of Legendary Events throughout the game, and not all of those events - in fact, maybe very few of them - would be Great Victories. Some, like the Plague of Justinian, might be 'won' simply by surviving it, while in other cases just something suitably Off the Wall, like the Defenestration of Memphis ("I don't think the Pharaoh even realized there was a window in his pyramid . . .") could gather you Narrative Points, and, as above, losing a battle could in many cases make a better Narrative than winning one.
 
- And that's really the model I'm looking at for the game: extra stress on the player which can be answered by various mechanisms (notably, Japan during the LIA had almost no upheaval because they had a handy food surplus and so had no stress on their political or cultural 'systems') but keep (especially the human player)

makes sense and is a good idea, i like
 
A problem I realize with designing a nomadic Civ is that nomadism begins and ends.

the potential to develop into a pastoral Civ if you have the combination of open plains/grasslands and Horse Resource.

Its another reason why I think the option to choose some of your Civ's Uniques only after you see your Starting Position is a good one: having a Horse Archer Unique on a horseless Archepeligo or in the middle of a massive rain forest is both senseless and frustrating.

I agree here that nomadism shouldn't be a Civ unique trait, but instead all Civs should have the potential to live nomadic.

And what you said about choosing uniques is great from a player standpoint, but it seems difficult for a designer, assuming all of those uniques are pre-made and historical. For Civs like Scythia and Mongolia, we know them best as pastoral horse archers. What other options can a designer give them for unique units that suit the "unique unit" standards?

What I see as the optimal system for nomadism- nomadism as a choice for your Civ based on your circumstances- makes the inclusion of historically nomadic Civs difficult. Do you give them bonuses that incentivize nomadism? What do those bonuses do when that isn't an option or after it stops being viable? It puts them in the boat of maritime Civs (pun not intended but intentionally kept ;)) or any Civ with a map reliance. How do you balance versatility and historical accuracy?

Are situational Civs worth making?

(ignore everything below this if you just care about the nomad question)

Since it's tangentially related, I want to bring up a certain Civ design idea. Am I doing this because it's a convenient excuse to show off terms I made myself?

...maybe :mischief:

Typically, the more versatile a Civ is, the less they restrict you. Take Rome. Going wide is widely applicable (I did it again ;)) and works regardless of the map. Contrast that with Portugal who simply cannot function on a map that doesn't favor them.

I call this a Civ's approach. Rome has a soft approach. They make the player sacrifice very little. A soft approach does little to restrict the player. On the opposite end is the hard approach of a Civ like Portugal or Mali. The player does have to make some sacrifices with them and is mildly restricted. While restricting the player's options is something to be done carefully, it's essential for balancing Civs with a unique playstyle. If a Civ with no production debuffs had access to all of Mali's Gold, it'd be pretty unfair. But if Mali had a less specialized kit, it would also make them less fun to play. Thus, they restrict the player in exchange for access to unmatched strengths or a unique playstyle.

Most maritime Civs (and assuming that nomadism becomes a map-based play in Civ VII, nomadic Civs) lean towards the hard approach category. They ask you to play a certain way in order to get the most out of them.

I mention all of this because I want to ask, what is everyone's opinion on soft approaches vs. hard approaches?
 
A problem I realize with designing a nomadic Civ is that nomadism begins and ends.



I agree here that nomadism shouldn't be a Civ unique trait, but instead all Civs should have the potential to live nomadic.

And what you said about choosing uniques is great from a player standpoint, but it seems difficult for a designer, assuming all of those uniques are pre-made and historical. For Civs like Scythia and Mongolia, we know them best as pastoral horse archers. What other options can a designer give them for unique units that suit the "unique unit" standards?
About 'nomadic unique units':
I'm glad you asked.
Let's assume for starters, that the game would use the historical model, as opposed to a fantasy model or simply Designing From Ignorance, and require Horses and the domestication of same as a prerequisite for choosing a Nomadic Model for your Civ.
This would also open up an entire string of linear or branching Unique Units:

Horseman - the first riders, without any weapons designed to be used from horseback - no composite bows, lances, long swords or even spears, just stone-headed maces and javelins, which can be used as well or better by men on foot. A great scouting and pillaging unit, though - it was similar 'units' that drove the great Cucuteni cities right off the steppes during the Neolithic because it was impossible to protect their fields and farmers from men on horseback.
Horse Archer - the quintessential nomad unit, because every adult in the Civ has to know how to ride and shoot to protect the flocks and herds that the Civ depends on. Basic weapon is the composite Bow - everything else is Nice To Have, but not necessary - nomadic armies of horse archers had a lot ofg success without anyone else to help throughout history - just ask Cyrus about that . . .
Lancer - as early as 400 BCE Herodotus describes the Roxolani among the Scythians as preferring to fight on horseback with lances, and within 200 years there is the variety of:
Light Lancers - unarmored men with lances, extremely dangerous when charging because they are fast enough to catch you if you try to ride away and shoot at them. Used by 'nomad' groups as different as the Saka Scythians and the Comanche in North America
Heavy Lancers - Armored men with lances, and frequently effective secondary weapons like short or long swords or axes. Not only used by nomad groups like the Sarmatians and Alans and 'Noble Scythians'. but also by later Roman Heavy Cavalry and Alexander the Great's Hetairoi heavy cavalry.
Cataphractii - armored men on armored horses with lances and swords. The man and horse armor is described used by the Massagetae Scythians at Gaugamela, by about 100 CE the Sarmatians and Persians are both fielding these types.
Clibanarii - a variant Cataphractii, armored men on armored horses with composite bows as well as lances or javelins. Specifically used by the Sassanid Persians, but they appear to have borrowed the idea from nomads further east.

And, of course, if the Civ has access to 'variant' animals, they can add:
Camel-mounted Cavalry - armed with bows, javelins, lances, spears, or hand guns - all were used by various Arabic, North African, or Central Asian nomadic groups
Elephants - armored or unarmored, with men armed with bows, spears, javelins, hand guns, lances, or even machineguns.

And speaking of guns, both nomadic and 'regular' Civs used the Gulay Gorod - the wagon-fort built out of the big wagons that carried Yurts across the steppes, and of course the Hussites converted that improvised system into wagons armored with wooden walls containing crossbowmen, hand gunners, small 'swivel' cannon, and pikemen. They even managed to charge with these things, since the guns and crossbows could be used quite well from a moving wagon.

All of which, with or without dragging along impressed 'settled' specialists like Siege Engineers building trebuchets or hauling cannon, allow a Nomadic Civ to stay quite relevant into the Renaissance . . .
 
About 'nomadic unique units':
I'm glad you asked.
Let's assume for starters, that the game would use the historical model, as opposed to a fantasy model or simply Designing From Ignorance, and require Horses and the domestication of same as a prerequisite for choosing a Nomadic Model for your Civ.
This would also open up an entire string of linear or branching Unique Units:

Horseman - the first riders, without any weapons designed to be used from horseback - no composite bows, lances, long swords or even spears, just stone-headed maces and javelins, which can be used as well or better by men on foot. A great scouting and pillaging unit, though - it was similar 'units' that drove the great Cucuteni cities right off the steppes during the Neolithic because it was impossible to protect their fields and farmers from men on horseback.
Horse Archer - the quintessential nomad unit, because every adult in the Civ has to know how to ride and shoot to protect the flocks and herds that the Civ depends on. Basic weapon is the composite Bow - everything else is Nice To Have, but not necessary - nomadic armies of horse archers had a lot ofg success without anyone else to help throughout history - just ask Cyrus about that . . .
Lancer - as early as 400 BCE Herodotus describes the Roxolani among the Scythians as preferring to fight on horseback with lances, and within 200 years there is the variety of:
Light Lancers - unarmored men with lances, extremely dangerous when charging because they are fast enough to catch you if you try to ride away and shoot at them. Used by 'nomad' groups as different as the Saka Scythians and the Comanche in North America
Heavy Lancers - Armored men with lances, and frequently effective secondary weapons like short or long swords or axes. Not only used by nomad groups like the Sarmatians and Alans and 'Noble Scythians'. but also by later Roman Heavy Cavalry and Alexander the Great's Hetairoi heavy cavalry.
Cataphractii - armored men on armored horses with lances and swords. The man and horse armor is described used by the Massagetae Scythians at Gaugamela, by about 100 CE the Sarmatians and Persians are both fielding these types.
Clibanarii - a variant Cataphractii, armored men on armored horses with composite bows as well as lances or javelins. Specifically used by the Sassanid Persians, but they appear to have borrowed the idea from nomads further east.

And, of course, if the Civ has access to 'variant' animals, they can add:
Camel-mounted Cavalry - armed with bows, javelins, lances, spears, or hand guns - all were used by various Arabic, North African, or Central Asian nomadic groups
Elephants - armored or unarmored, with men armed with bows, spears, javelins, hand guns, lances, or even machineguns.

And speaking of guns, both nomadic and 'regular' Civs used the Gulay Gorod - the wagon-fort built out of the big wagons that carried Yurts across the steppes, and of course the Hussites converted that improvised system into wagons armored with wooden walls containing crossbowmen, hand gunners, small 'swivel' cannon, and pikemen. They even managed to charge with these things, since the guns and crossbows could be used quite well from a moving wagon.

All of which, with or without dragging along impressed 'settled' specialists like Siege Engineers building trebuchets or hauling cannon, allow a Nomadic Civ to stay quite relevant into the Renaissance . . .
Asking you a question never disappoints. Your replies are always a fascinating and interesting read. They also soothe my worries that my posts are too long or take too much effort :lol:

(No offense, either. I stay on this site for the wonderful posts of the Fanatics)

This has also made me realize that a unit that suits a nomadic-geared Civ well would also help them just as much when settled. Cavalry will always be cavalry- that is, powerful.

Assuming that the next Civ game has "nomadism as a map choice" and inherits Civ VI's weak navies, then one of these nomadism-inclined Civs would be at a greater advantage than maritime ones even when outside of their preferred map.
 
I agree here that nomadism shouldn't be a Civ unique trait, but instead all Civs should have the potential to live nomadic.

And what you said about choosing uniques is great from a player standpoint, but it seems difficult for a designer, assuming all of those uniques are pre-made and historical. For Civs like Scythia and Mongolia, we know them best as pastoral horse archers. What other options can a designer give them for unique units that suit the "unique unit" standards?

What I see as the optimal system for nomadism- nomadism as a choice for your Civ based on your circumstances- makes the inclusion of historically nomadic Civs difficult. Do you give them bonuses that incentivize nomadism? What do those bonuses do when that isn't an option or after it stops being viable? It puts them in the boat of maritime Civs (pun not intended but intentionally kept ;)) or any Civ with a map reliance. How do you balance versatility and historical accuracy?

Are situational Civs worth making?

(ignore everything below this if you just care about the nomad question)

Since it's tangentially related, I want to bring up a certain Civ design idea. Am I doing this because it's a convenient excuse to show off terms I made myself?

...maybe :mischief:

Typically, the more versatile a Civ is, the less they restrict you. Take Rome. Going wide is widely applicable (I did it again ;)) and works regardless of the map. Contrast that with Portugal who simply cannot function on a map that doesn't favor them.

I call this a Civ's approach. Rome has a soft approach. They make the player sacrifice very little. A soft approach does little to restrict the player. On the opposite end is the hard approach of a Civ like Portugal or Mali. The player does have to make some sacrifices with them and is mildly restricted. While restricting the player's options is something to be done carefully, it's essential for balancing Civs with a unique playstyle. If a Civ with no production debuffs had access to all of Mali's Gold, it'd be pretty unfair. But if Mali had a less specialized kit, it would also make them less fun to play. Thus, they restrict the player in exchange for access to unmatched strengths or a unique playstyle.

Most maritime Civs (and assuming that nomadism becomes a map-based play in Civ VII, nomadic Civs) lean towards the hard approach category. They ask you to play a certain way in order to get the most out of them.

I mention all of this because I want to ask, what is everyone's opinion on soft approaches vs. hard approaches?
Well since the unique units are already covered let me throw out my idea which I believe I've already posted before:
Every civ starts out as nomadic and can settle their own "nomadic camps" which act as temporary cities which can build units and gather resources from it's surrounding tiles. The obvious difference is you would be able to move these nomadic camps if you choose to go to a better location.

As for designing a specific nomadic civ I can see the potential to where maybe the tiles around the nomadic camps yield more than they would if it was a regular city. Or maybe they have access to even a unique nomadic camp that is stronger and even lasts through the whole game, even after you have the ability to found normal cities, and your settlers have an option to choose a city or nomadic camp on the tile you want.
 
Well since the unique units are already covered let me throw out my idea which I believe I've already posted before:
Every civ starts out as nomadic and can settle their own "nomadic camps" which act as temporary cities which can build units and gather resources from it's surrounding tiles. The obvious difference is you would be able to move these nomadic camps if you choose to go to a better location.

As for designing a specific nomadic civ I can see the potential to where maybe the tiles around the nomadic camps yield more than they would if it was a regular city. Or maybe they have access to even a unique nomadic camp that is stronger and even lasts through the whole game, even after you have the ability to found normal cities, and your settlers have an option to choose a city or nomadic camp on the tile you want.
There was a distinct difference between "wandering hunter-gatherers" which describes Human Existence since about the time we started walking upright, and Pastoral Nomadism, which requires at least semi-domestication of Food Animals like cattle and sheep and goats and some kind of draft animals to move all of your accumulated Stuff. The first would be your Starting Point, and it's a good fit: push the Start of Game back to the very beginning of the Neolithic 'Agricultural Revolution' at about 10,000 BCE and let everybody start from scratch working towards cities instead of starting with Cities as a Given.

OR if you start with domesticatable animals in your vicinity, you can work towards Animal Domestication instead of Agriculture, and with draft animals like the equines or cattle (or even dogs - the North American naives made a pretty good thing out of dog-mounted travois to move goods and so developed at least short-ranged nomadism without horses or cattle or sheep to domesticate - but their food sources were mostly gathered or hunted instead) and develop True Pastoral Nomadism, which requires access to domesticated Horses as riding animals and bronze tools to cut wood to make Wheels - yes, the true pastoral nomad comes well after even the current 4000 BCE start date, at about 2500 - 2000 BCE when bronze tools and solid wooden wheels appear simultaneously in certain areas that also have lots of domesticated potential draft animals.

Add in some of the 'outlier' sources for concentrated food (and, therefore, city-like concentrations of Population) like coastal or river Fish/Waterfowl or terraced farming (another early 'invention' from South America) or Botanical Engineering (development of maize and potato from relatively worthless ancestrial plants) and our digital Civs could start to differentiate dramatically from the earliest part of the Ancient Era, regardless of Leader qualities or 'uniques'.
 
Personally I think that trying to design Nomadic civs is a fools errand, and not a great way to portray any historic group, even the ones you are calling "nomadic".

There are cultures that move around a lot, but pretty much all of them have a territory, or a set rotation of places that they move back and forth to, with a range of a few hundred kilometers at most. This is seen mostly with pastoralist cultures moving back and forth from winter to summer grazing lands, but even some agriculturalist groups like the Haudenosaunee moved their communities around in a sort of slash and burn crop rotation.

Nomadism in certain cultures is usually a result of mass migration and displacement, which we have attributed to some groups and not others as an accident of historiography. This is more likely to happen to pastoralist cultures because the land they regularly occupy is more marginal, more vulnerable to climatic shifts, and their lifestyle isn't dependent on static geographic features like a river valley. The Goths are remembered as a nomadic group moving all across Europe and settling in Spain, but they were farmers driven from their lands by the Huns. They existed for centuries in Ukraine and for centuries in Spain, with farms, cities ctc in each place, but to the pop-historian they are defined by their time in the 5th and 6th centuries spent as nomads, because that was the most dynamic and memorable time for that culture. So, are the Goths a "Nomadic" civ?

As @BuchiTaton has pointed out, being a pastoralist culture implying a lack of urban centers is a false dichotomy as well. Should there maybe be less emphasis on districts and specialists with a pastoralist civ? Maybe, sure. I don't think you accomplish an accurate portrayal of pastoralist civs by prohibiting them from founding cities or building districts, however. I think you portray this lifestyle best by inducing civs to play wide, to put more emphasis on tile improvements over districts, and on creating abilities that spread fewer :c5citizen: citizens over more territory. I wouldn't ban urbanization, but give certain carrots and sticks for pastoralists to spread their population over more land and more, smaller cities (wide), while you give agricultural/sedentarist civs carrots for playing with fewer, larger cities (tall).

For instance, you could lock pasture improvements to pastoralist civs at the beginning of the game, and make pastures work differently.
- Improving a Pasture resource could claim an adjacent tile​
- that adjacent claimed tile has its base yields stripped from it and put onto the pasture resource.​
Thus, you have a single pasture improvement that occupies 2 tiles of space, has the terrain yields of 2 tiles, but has the resource and improvement yields of 1 tile, and only takes 1 :c5citizen: to work. This makes land use for that pasture slightly more population-efficient, but less land-efficient. An equivalent 2 tiles of farm would have yields/resources/improvements for 2 tiles, but also take 2 tiles to work

I don't like the idea of banning pastoralists from making large cities, but you could make some of their abilities reward having more small cities that occupy more tile sprawl.
Off the top of my head:​
- You could give all civs a % :c5production:modifier towards building settlers that scales for each :c5citizen:in a city, but make that % :c5production:modifier larger for pastoralists​
- You could make specialists cost less upkeep for sedentarist/agricultural civs​
- pastoralist civs could yield triple horses from strategics while agriculturalists yield triple iron (make 1 favor cavalry and the other favor heavy infantry)​
 
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Personally I think that trying to design Nomadic civs is a fools errand, and not a great way to portray any historic group, even the ones you are calling "nomadic".

There are cultures that move around a lot, but pretty much all of them have a territory, or a set rotation of places that they move back and forth to, with a range of a few hundred kilometers at most. This is seen mostly with pastoralist cultures moving back and forth from winter to summer grazing lands, but even some agriculturalist groups like the Haudenosaunee moved their communities around in a sort of slash and burn crop rotation.
You are confusing pastoral nomadism with trans-humant cultures. Pastoral nomads follow their herds/flocks. They may follow them in a set pattern, but they are always willing (and frequently able) to change that pattern if climate/terrain/other factors make it necessary or desirable. And frequently the area they cover is so comparatively huge that the 'set pattern' is not apparent to outsiders - look at the descriptions of the Scythians, Lakotah Souix, Comanche, or Goths in Ukraine by their more settled contemporary neighbors.

Trans-humant cultures move at specific times between specific places, most commonly between winter and summer settlements to take advantage of optimum terrain and seasonal climate. Best examples I know of (and most familiar) were:
1. the Algonkian communities of New England, many of whom moved annually between a summer village on the coast where they could exploit fishing and shellfishing, and a winter village inland out of range of the winter storms off the North Atlantic.
2. The pre-urban communities of Mesopotamia, who moved between summer pastures and fields in the foothills and winter villages 'down by the river'. Once they started developing irrigation that made it possible to grow crops/food even in the desert-like summer conditions, they started staying permanently in proto-cities located on/near the rivers and floodplains. The Trans-humant culture is enduring, though: 5000 years later the Kurds in the same area still prefer to 'take a vacation' in the hills in the summer while living 'permanently' in the cities of the plains.

IF we choose to model both, they would almost have to be modeled a little differently.
Nomadism in certain cultures is usually a result of mass migration and displacement, which we have attributed to some groups and not others as an accident of historiography. This is more likely to happen to pastoralist cultures because the land they regularly occupy is more marginal, more vulnerable to climatic shifts, and their lifestyle isn't dependent on static geographic features like a river valley. The Goths are remembered as a nomadic group moving all across Europe and settling in Spain, but they were farmers driven from their lands by the Huns. They existed for centuries in Ukraine and for centuries in Spain, with farms, cities ctc in each place, but to the pop-historian they are defined by their time in the 5th and 6th centuries spent as nomads, because that was the most dynamic and memorable time for that culture. So, are the Goths a "Nomadic" civ?

As @BuchiTaton has pointed out, being a pastoralist culture implying a lack of urban centers is a false dichotomy as well. Should there maybe be less emphasis on districts and specialists with a pastoralist civ? Maybe, sure. I don't think you accomplish an accurate portrayal of pastoralist civs by prohibiting them from founding cities or building districts, however. I think you portray this lifestyle best by inducing civs to play wide, to put more emphasis on tile improvements over districts, and on creating abilities that spread fewer :c5citizen: citizens over more territory. I wouldn't ban urbanization, but give certain carrots and sticks for pastoralists to spread their population over more land and more, smaller cities (wide), while you give agricultural/sedentarist civs carrots for playing with fewer, larger cities (tall).

Again, you appear to be conflating two different mechanisms for 'nomadism'. On the one hand, Pastoral Nomadism is a lifestyle choice by some cultures. Once you had access to wheeled vehicles and horseback riding, using those 'technologies' to mobilize your population to follow (and guide) domestic herds and flocks gave a far better return on time invested than sitting next to a river trying to grow crops, and made the group less vulnerable to vagarities of terrain and climate. Even absent the wheeled vehicles, the pastoral horse-riding American Natives of the great plains used travois/sledges to move all their worldly goods and families from place to place, and groups like the Lakotah, Comanche, and Kiowa abandoned 'conventional' settled (primitive) farming or hunter-gathering for the nomadic lifestyle because it was more efficient on a return on time invested.

On the other hand, groups of all kinds have been forced to move because of changes in climate/terrain (Climate Change, as I have said before, is NOT a new phenomena in human history, it has been a Constant in human history) or the aggressiveness of their human neighbors.
This started early, since there is copious archeological evidence of cities being abandoned or cultures moving their 'core territories' from long before history started (i.e., long before writing systems) and kept right on happening. Just yesterday I read a report on DNA analysis of Post-Roman Britain graves that discovered a relatively massive migration of population from northern mainland Europe (tentatively, Northern Germany/Belgium to Scandinavia) to parts of England in the 5th century BE (immediate 'Post-Roman'). This was not, from the archeological evidence, a military-like invasion, it was a resettlement of entire populations and villages across the channel - a moment of 'nomadism' in which a population, for reasons not yet entirely understood, packed up and moved wholesale to a 'better world' while retaining most of their cultural and technological practices and knowledge.

I don't think any separate mechanisms are needed in-game for the second type of 'nomadism' - if a city becomes unviable for whatever reason, create a Settler and 'move' it.

The difference, at least in the Ancient to Renaissance Eras (or, roughly, the first half of the game), between the Pastoral and Settled cultures, though, has to be shown in-game if the game is going to continue to bill itself as a 'historical 4x' game.
The pastoral cultures had too much influence on their neighbors, in technology (among other things, the spoke-wheeled chariot, virtually all horse-controlling technologies, composite bow, possibly lost-wax metal casting, all started in pastoral cultures), in trade contacts and all their consequences. Silk Roads, in a word, but also the technological and cultural contacts that flowed along them: cast iron working, some gunpowder technologies from China to Europe, along with less desired elements like Bubonic Plague and less predictable elements like Christian, Islamic and Buddhist religions.

Any Pastoral Group that stayed around for any length of time either conquered or built their own 'cities', the latter probably starting as seasonal trading gatherings similar to the 'Rendesvous' of North America and becoming more permanent - like Batu Sarai of the Golden/Great Horde on the Volga. More commonly, 'pastoral' groups simply conquered and took over existing cities: Samarkand/Marakhanda was a major trading city for the Persian, Sogdian, and Kushan 'Civs', all pastoral at least when they are first identified.
 
You are confusing pastoral nomadism with trans-humant cultures. Pastoral nomads follow their herds/flocks. They may follow them in a set pattern, but they are always willing (and frequently able) to change that pattern if climate/terrain/other factors make it necessary or desirable. And frequently the area they cover is so comparatively huge that the 'set pattern' is not apparent to outsiders - look at the descriptions of the Scythians, Lakotah Souix, Comanche, or Goths in Ukraine by their more settled contemporary neighbors.

Trans-humant cultures move at specific times between specific places, most commonly between winter and summer settlements to take advantage of optimum terrain and seasonal climate. Best examples I know of (and most familiar) were:
1. the Algonkian communities of New England, many of whom moved annually between a summer village on the coast where they could exploit fishing and shellfishing, and a winter village inland out of range of the winter storms off the North Atlantic.
2. The pre-urban communities of Mesopotamia, who moved between summer pastures and fields in the foothills and winter villages 'down by the river'. Once they started developing irrigation that made it possible to grow crops/food even in the desert-like summer conditions, they started staying permanently in proto-cities located on/near the rivers and floodplains. The Trans-humant culture is enduring, though: 5000 years later the Kurds in the same area still prefer to 'take a vacation' in the hills in the summer while living 'permanently' in the cities of the plains.

IF we choose to model both, they would almost have to be modeled a little differently.


Again, you appear to be conflating two different mechanisms for 'nomadism'. On the one hand, Pastoral Nomadism is a lifestyle choice by some cultures. Once you had access to wheeled vehicles and horseback riding, using those 'technologies' to mobilize your population to follow (and guide) domestic herds and flocks gave a far better return on time invested than sitting next to a river trying to grow crops, and made the group less vulnerable to vagarities of terrain and climate. Even absent the wheeled vehicles, the pastoral horse-riding American Natives of the great plains used travois/sledges to move all their worldly goods and families from place to place, and groups like the Lakotah, Comanche, and Kiowa abandoned 'conventional' settled (primitive) farming or hunter-gathering for the nomadic lifestyle because it was more efficient on a return on time invested.

On the other hand, groups of all kinds have been forced to move because of changes in climate/terrain (Climate Change, as I have said before, is NOT a new phenomena in human history, it has been a Constant in human history) or the aggressiveness of their human neighbors.
This started early, since there is copious archeological evidence of cities being abandoned or cultures moving their 'core territories' from long before history started (i.e., long before writing systems) and kept right on happening. Just yesterday I read a report on DNA analysis of Post-Roman Britain graves that discovered a relatively massive migration of population from northern mainland Europe (tentatively, Northern Germany/Belgium to Scandinavia) to parts of England in the 5th century BE (immediate 'Post-Roman'). This was not, from the archeological evidence, a military-like invasion, it was a resettlement of entire populations and villages across the channel - a moment of 'nomadism' in which a population, for reasons not yet entirely understood, packed up and moved wholesale to a 'better world' while retaining most of their cultural and technological practices and knowledge.

I don't think any separate mechanisms are needed in-game for the second type of 'nomadism' - if a city becomes unviable for whatever reason, create a Settler and 'move' it.

The difference, at least in the Ancient to Renaissance Eras (or, roughly, the first half of the game), between the Pastoral and Settled cultures, though, has to be shown in-game if the game is going to continue to bill itself as a 'historical 4x' game.
The pastoral cultures had too much influence on their neighbors, in technology (among other things, the spoke-wheeled chariot, virtually all horse-controlling technologies, composite bow, possibly lost-wax metal casting, all started in pastoral cultures), in trade contacts and all their consequences. Silk Roads, in a word, but also the technological and cultural contacts that flowed along them: cast iron working, some gunpowder technologies from China to Europe, along with less desired elements like Bubonic Plague and less predictable elements like Christian, Islamic and Buddhist religions.

Any Pastoral Group that stayed around for any length of time either conquered or built their own 'cities', the latter probably starting as seasonal trading gatherings similar to the 'Rendesvous' of North America and becoming more permanent - like Batu Sarai of the Golden/Great Horde on the Volga. More commonly, 'pastoral' groups simply conquered and took over existing cities: Samarkand/Marakhanda was a major trading city for the Persian, Sogdian, and Kushan 'Civs', all pastoral at least when they are first identified.
You have got to work on brevity, my dude. My points were:
  • separating cultures between sedentary agricultural cultures that don't move at all and pastoralist cultures that move around a ton is a messy, unhelpful dichotomy
  • Invoking "nomadism" is imprecise. Notably, it conflates transhumance and other cyclical movements of people with mass migration. Our popular imagination of many historical groups -- what would end up making it into a game like civ -- catches them in tumultuous times of displacement that don't necessarily reflect how those people normally lived.
  • Hard rules that disable certain game mechanics for certain cultures is essentializing, often inaccurate, and probably not that much fun anyways. Softer nudges towards wide/tall play that are framed as bonuses are a better way to go.
I also think that game mechanics that depict pastoralism would work best if they are constrained to Pastures, rather than prescribed onto civs at the game setup. If you start next to a lot of pasture resources -- or the game prescribes pasture resources as a starting resource to your civ -- then I guess you're a pastoralist civ. The game could do a better job of making pastures, camps etc. use land differently than farms/pastures, etc. The various improvements are only skin-deep differences, distinguished from each other by graphics, tech unlocks, and yield boosters. The only exception in civ 6 is that adjacent farms boost each other.
 
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