Huns: Organized Barbarians or Established Empire?

[Otaku-sama]

I've been thinking. The Huns were indeed considered barbarians by the Romans and so does Civ4. But when you search up the Huns, they were pretty organized, in the likeness of the Mongolians. Sure, they were nomads, but they could conquer and pillage like the best of the Mongols. I believe that the Huns should be made into a Civ or into a super barbarian event, even bigger than Vedic Aryans or Philistines and such, where they get a massive force of current tech units, like Swordsmen or Horse Archers, but in numbers even bigger than in the current random event. They also get two rather developed cities in the fog of war, pop around 5 or so. This should put the Huns in their appropriate historical perspective.

Leave your thoughts and comments.

 

[semperus]

I believe there already is a Hun invasion event. It's the stack of HA, I think.

Organized barbarians, btw.

 

[Otaku-sama]

No I mean a Hun event x10. They even get their own cities to develop even bigger armies. The Huns were a main threat to the Roman Empire. They should be more like uber barbs.

 

[Ajidica]

At the risk of lecturing, the huns were not as large of a threat to the Western Roman Empire as is commonly believed. (At this time the Roman Empire was split into two parts, east and west). The east was pretty much unscathed by the huns, considering the Goths had already pillaged the European part of the East (Thrace and Balkans) barely a century earlier so there wasn't much left for the huns.
For the past 50 odd years, the WRE had the Vandals rampaging around modern day france and spain, devestating it. In addition, the Vandals had siezed North Africa which was the financial powerhouse of the WRE. With no money and most of the Roman field armies were destroyed in a civil war between Flavius Aetius, Boniface, and Constantine III. (There may have been another General but Flavius Aetius and Boniface were the major ones.) It is also important to remember that all invaisions Attila lead into the WRE ended in failure. When he invaded in italy 453 he was forced back by a plauge and in 454 when he confronted a Roman army (despite the fact it was made up of mainly barbs) he was defeated (Chalons). It was the Vandals that made the WRE vulnerable to the Huns and then the Goths that destroyed the Empire. If anything, the (Visi or Ostro)Goths should be the 'uber barbs' because after Rome fell they established major states. The Ostrogoths in Italy were only defeated by the full might of the East with a brilliant General and it was the Visigoths in spain that threw out the Moors in 1492 (The Spanish house of Castille-Leon, Castilla, and Aragorn trace their lineage back to the Visigoths who were forced into the north by the moors). After Attilas death the huns collapsed into a huge free-for-all on the Hungarian plains with the defeated tribes fleeing for their lifes toward the Roman empire.

Basicaly, the Huns should remain organized barbs while the Goths should be the 'uber barbs'.

 

[Raizer]

The problem with this is that it would basically be game over for whoever got that random event. As it is, some of the barbarian uprising events are an automatic game breaker. Might be more realistic - after all, the Roman Empire did succumb to barbarians - but in a computer game, it wouldn't be very fun to play.

 

[DrewTate]

After Atila died, everything he had worked for empire wise was gone almost instantly.

Barbs.

 

[Otaku-sama]

Then maybe to balance it out, after the Huns give you a good pummeling, they disappear when Attila dies.

 

[Zeiter]

What about if, instead of hurling a big stack of barbarian units at you all at once like most events do, if the event spawned a continuous and accelerating trickle of barbs, up to a certain point? Is this not how it was for the Roman Empire? The Roman Empire wasn't destroyed by a single stack of Goth barbarians overnight. It was the constant harassment and pillaging that crippled Rome.

So what if you had a Goth/Hun barbarian event that spawned, for example, 1 unit on the first turn, 2 units on the 2nd turn, 3 units on the 3rd turn, 4 units on the 4th turn, 5 units on the 5th turn, 4 units on the 6th turn, 3 units on the 7th turn, 2 units on the 8th turn, and 1 last unit on the 9th turn. You get a visit by the first roaming barbarians, who bring word of great migrations afoot. This gives you time to prepare. Then the units start coming fast and furious 25 units total over 10 turns), and you don't even have time to heal before the next wave hits, meaning you have to be pumping units out like crazy. This would be more fun, I think, than the standard "You lose!" card that you get dealt with having 4-6 Vedic Aryans or HA's suddenly appear 2 tiles from your city.

The alternative would be to have all of the units spawn at once, but have the mega-stack of barb units be required to spawn a minimum distance from any city (like, let's say, 8 tiles). Having the barb events spawn "outside of borders" doesn't cut it when in the early game your "borders" amount to only the first or 2nd rings. If you stipulated a reasonable minimum distance, you might be able to allow for a 10+ unit spawn in this case without the event being an automatic game over (because in 4-8 turns you can produce and send to the front quite a few extra units with slavery).

 

[Agent327]

At the risk of lecturing, the huns were not as large of a threat to the Western Roman Empire as is commonly believed. (At this time the Roman Empire was split into two parts, east and west). The east was pretty much unscathed by the huns, considering the Goths had already pillaged the European part of the East (Thrace and Balkans) barely a century earlier so there wasn't much left for the huns.

That's not entirely accurate: there were Hunnic incursions in the Anatolian part of the Eastern empire well before Attila (who served in the Western Roman military, by the way) appeared on the stage and they dominated much of Eastern Europe until the death of Attila. Attila threatened the East as well, but the main objective of the Huns seems to have been loot, not conquest of territory. They ravaged the Balkans, taking cities with the use of sieg equipment and were only repelled after considerable effort by Byzantium (Consantinople was kept safe by its even then formidable walls). His Italian campaign, while suffering from plague, mainly lacked focus; Rome was threatened - due to the mentioned lack in effective military forces -, but was saved, not by divine intervention of the pope, but presumably rather by the depletion of Attila's forces due to the plague. While the Huns system of government resembled a feudal overlordship over their vassals (including several Germanic tribes), it was based on military prowess, which Attila clearly displayed. When his sons did not live up to his reputation the Hun confederacy quickly dissolved, even turning to Byzantium for protection.

 

[dankok8]

Isn't the migration of the Huns into Europe what triggered the migration of the other Germanic tribes (Goths, Franks, Vandals etc) into the WRE in the first place? Even if not directly destroying Rome itself, the Huns led to its destruction in a big way no doubt about it.

 

[starmanbeta]

If you're talking realism, then really there have never been any barbarian people ever on earth. The barbarians in Civ are a gameplay mechanic.

What happened in history is that civilizations with writing would call whoever they didn't like "barbarians". If those "barbarian" civilizations didn't have any writing of their own, then the historical record would end up one-sided. Hence why Roman enemies like the celtic and germanic tribes ended up with a reputation for barbarism. The Romans had writing and the Celts and Germans didn't.

So, yes, the Huns probably deserve to be a civilization in Civ 4, but so do a lot of other civilizations. They ultimately can't put everyone into the game.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

What about if, instead of hurling a big stack of barbarian units at you all at once like most events do, if the event spawned a continuous and accelerating trickle of barbs, up to a certain point? Is this not how it was for the Roman Empire? The Roman Empire wasn't destroyed by a single stack of Goth barbarians overnight. It was the constant harassment and pillaging that crippled Rome.

So what if you had a Goth/Hun barbarian event that spawned, for example, 1 unit on the first turn, 2 units on the 2nd turn, 3 units on the 3rd turn, 4 units on the 4th turn, 5 units on the 5th turn, 4 units on the 6th turn, 3 units on the 7th turn, 2 units on the 8th turn, and 1 last unit on the 9th turn. You get a visit by the first roaming barbarians, who bring word of great migrations afoot. This gives you time to prepare. Then the units start coming fast and furious 25 units total over 10 turns), and you don't even have time to heal before the next wave hits, meaning you have to be pumping units out like crazy. This would be more fun, I think, than the standard "You lose!" card that you get dealt with having 4-6 Vedic Aryans or HA's suddenly appear 2 tiles from your city.

I like your suggestion. That could be fun. It would mean a game occasionally putting your civ to an extra amount of stress and test, but what of it?

 

[Raizer]

What about if, instead of hurling a big stack of barbarian units at you all at once like most events do, if the event spawned a continuous and accelerating trickle of barbs, up to a certain point? Is this not how it was for the Roman Empire? The Roman Empire wasn't destroyed by a single stack of Goth barbarians overnight. It was the constant harassment and pillaging that crippled Rome.

So what if you had a Goth/Hun barbarian event that spawned, for example, 1 unit on the first turn, 2 units on the 2nd turn, 3 units on the 3rd turn, 4 units on the 4th turn, 5 units on the 5th turn, 4 units on the 6th turn, 3 units on the 7th turn, 2 units on the 8th turn, and 1 last unit on the 9th turn. You get a visit by the first roaming barbarians, who bring word of great migrations afoot. This gives you time to prepare. Then the units start coming fast and furious 25 units total over 10 turns), and you don't even have time to heal before the next wave hits, meaning you have to be pumping units out like crazy. This would be more fun, I think, than the standard "You lose!" card that you get dealt with having 4-6 Vedic Aryans or HA's suddenly appear 2 tiles from your city.

The alternative would be to have all of the units spawn at once, but have the mega-stack of barb units be required to spawn a minimum distance from any city (like, let's say, 8 tiles). Having the barb events spawn "outside of borders" doesn't cut it when in the early game your "borders" amount to only the first or 2nd rings. If you stipulated a reasonable minimum distance, you might be able to allow for a 10+ unit spawn in this case without the event being an automatic game over (because in 4-8 turns you can produce and send to the front quite a few extra units with slavery).

This idea is a lot better than the current barbarian random events: a big stack that appears right outside your borders. It might still be a little unfair; it would be like playing on Raging Barbs while everyone else is on normal, but I think more barbarian events should be like this.

 

[Badtz Maru]

I've been playing Rise of Mankind lately, and there is an option in there to have barbarian tribes organize into civilizations, and when they do this they are given a big stack of units that they otherwise would not have had time to build. I had a local barbarian city (I also enabled an option that there is one barbarian city for every civilization at the start of the game) organize into the Vikings, and they hit me with a stack of 9 units with a great general attached - 2 chariots, 3 axemen, and 4 spearmen. This was at around 3500 BC, but since Rise of Mankind starts at 6000 BC, this was more like around 1500 BC. I was wiped out easily.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

They should just make minor civs spawn on occasion, in areas that are a significant distance from culture borders.

 

[r_rolo1]

They should just make minor civs spawn on occasion, in areas that are a significant distance from culture borders.

And fill a civ slot ? Nah .... aleast as long as the stock game is locked on 18 civs or less.

 

[Rusty Edge]

For what it's worth, I'd probably classify the Huns as organized nomads, as well as the Vikings and Mongols, both of which are welcome additions to Civ.

I think some of you should try the Mod Legends of Revolution, which has minor civs with which you can't negotiate until they develop writing, and barbs which can become minor civs over time.

 

[Nares]

Then maybe to balance it out, after the Huns give you a good pummeling, they disappear when Attila dies.

Or you could read the lecture and replace Huns with Goths.

What's your hearthrob for the Huns?

 

[Öjevind Lång]

For what it's worth, I'd probably classify the Huns as organized nomads, as well as the Vikings and Mongols, both of which are welcome additions to Civ.

I think some of you should try the Mod Legends of Revolution, which has minor civs with which you can't negotiate until they develop writing, and barbs which can become minor civs over time.

The Vikings were not nomads. They were Scandinavian farmers engaged in piracy, trade or settling in another country.

 

[Rusty Edge]

The Vikings were not nomads. They were Scandinavian farmers engaged in piracy, trade or settling in another country.

True. I appreciate the correction. Adventurers might have been a better term for them.

I think of the Vikings as a culture which shaped the course of history, rather than a civ, because they were restless, and often became assimilated by the languages,religions, etc, where they settled . We wouldn't have had English civilization without the Danes and Normans. Where would Russia be without the Swedish Vikings?


I have two similar working definitions for civilizations. 1) Alastaire Cook's "A culture with a sense of permanence." 2) A place with central sewage.
It's about building for the future, and assimilating other cultures, rather than being absorbed by them.

For the record, I'd like to see Sweden or Denmark as a Civ. in the game.