I need some basic, early-game help

The Bramble

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Feb 6, 2006
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I try to play on Emperor on large, Continent maps, and get my butt kicked routinely regardless of civilization I play. I feel maybe I'm not being as efficient as I could be in the first 100-150 turns or so. Here is general my build order:

Warrior; Worker; Warrior; Warrior; Settler; Warrior; Warrior; Settler, and repeat until I run out of money or room.

I try to pick techs relevant to my situation, but in general I speed towards Festivals to keep my economy afloat, and completely ignore religion and magic beyond Mysticism. I also try to get to Bronze Working as fast as possible.

So here are the problems or concerns I consistently run into:

1. I need to war against a neighbor that is boxing me in. By the time I have a respectible axeman army its in the late 100s. I can take a new city or two but, especially builder civs, have always got archers or walls that chew me up.

2. When should I start investing in magic? usually its an afterthought that I don't look into until turn 200 or so. Am I really missing on something vital that will give my army the edge it needs at that point? I know Enchant Blade is great, any other level 1 wonder spells?

3. Should I try to grab a war-monger religion before I start fighting? Are OO and Kilmorph the only early-game religions good for that, and how soon should I have it?

I mostly just wonder if I'm moving fast enough, and if not, why not. The turns really fly by in the early game, and sometimes I'll look at the turn count, see its 215, and I only have 4 or 5 cities and 10 axemen with a 30% chance against their enemy counterparts.
 
I try to play on Emperor on large, Continent maps, and get my butt kicked routinely regardless of civilization I play. I feel maybe I'm not being as efficient as I could be in the first 100-150 turns or so. Here is general my build order:

Warrior; Worker; Warrior; Warrior; Settler; Warrior; Warrior; Settler, and repeat until I run out of money or room.

Warrior until pop hits 5 and then settler is my method.

I try to pick techs relevant to my situation, but in general I speed towards Festivals to keep my economy afloat, and completely ignore religion and magic beyond Mysticism. I also try to get to Bronze Working as fast as possible.

Are you doing this regardless of the civ you play? This sounds good for some civs, but shouldn't make sense for others...

So here are the problems or concerns I consistently run into:

1. I need to war against a neighbor that is boxing me in. By the time I have a respectible axeman army its in the late 100s. I can take a new city or two but, especially builder civs, have always got archers or walls that chew me up.

Early military fits the clan or hippus or doviello. Pick those for this. If hippus, try to rush horseback riding, but do not neglet to first stabilize economy, then capture cities. Just pillaging and killing until you are ready should be good enough.

2. When should I start investing in magic? usually its an afterthought that I don't look into until turn 200 or so. Am I really missing on something vital that will give my army the edge it needs at that point? I know Enchant Blade is great, any other level 1 wonder spells?
Do not invest in magic unless you play Amurites or Sheaim. If you are one of them, do invest asap.

3. Should I try to grab a war-monger religion before I start fighting? Are OO and Kilmorph the only early-game religions good for that, and how soon should I have it?

RoK helps your economy. FoL helps your growth. Pick the one you like most. I would go RoK if I were you, unless you play the Elves. FoL is a good fit for them.

I mostly just wonder if I'm moving fast enough, and if not, why not. The turns really fly by in the early game, and sometimes I'll look at the turn count, see its 215, and I only have 4 or 5 cities and 10 axemen with a 30% chance against their enemy counterparts.

You are too unfocussed for the difficulty you want to play. You'd better focus in one task at a time and not spread your efforts. This is my oppinion, of course. Someone else may advice differently.

EDIT: Forgot to comment on OO. It helps your culture, and gives some units. Not going to need them if you have a civ going down the metal line, you could use them if you play a civ like the Amurites, that want to stay away from the metal line for a while...If I were you, I would go Hippus with Tasunke and destroy everyone in my path, using RoK. You would want the opponents to spawn in the same continent, though. Choosing a pangea setting may help with that.
 
Take a Financial civ, research Calendar first and then Code of Laws. Aristo-grarian farms will give you the food needed to quickly hit your happy caps at which point you can throw the last 3 pop onto mines for production. Really, spam farms everywhere and prioritise city sites with fresh water.

The main strength of Aristograrian is how it gives you growth and economy FAST. Cottage heavy economies will only catch up in commerce a little after Iron Working so make sure and use your tech advantage against them in the midgame.

Regarding magic, it depends on what you're doing. Priest magic is mostly good. Arcane magic depends on your traits and palace mana. If you have Body or Enchantment then its usually worth building a few adepts early. Otherwise, its farily low priority until better military/economy techs have been researched. There are lots of good Mage spells so never leave it too late before building your first 3 adepts as you can always find a use for high level casters, but you don't want to wait for them to gain XP when that happens.
 
Aside from Enchant Blade, there's also Body magic's Tier 1 (always forget the name but gives +1 movement for a turn to the whole stack, crucial for long marches) and courage for fear immunity are both handy. Chaos I gives you a +1 first strike buff that wears off on combat. Holy spells also have a few nice buffs.

Magic really comes into its own when you get to Sorcery and Mages. You need level 4 Adepts to make into Mages, so investing in Adepts earlier on is often smart if you plan to get to Tier 2 before your first major war. Fireballs are a great alternative to catapults, and movespeed upgraded Mages can keep up with quicker units which catapults will never do. Body II for Regeneration is also very handy. Enchant II gives a nice buff if you use Archers (a must have for Firebows!).
 
As always, what civ do you play? You don't need axemen to conquer cities, it can easily be done earlier. A normal city usually takes three times its defender to take, and you can fool the enemy into emptying his cities down to ~2 by some strategic manouvering, especially if you have the advantage of speed (as in movement speed, elves in woods, dwarves on hills, etc.)

And what are your long term victory-plans? Domination, conquest, religious, or more peaceful?
 
I try to play on Emperor on large, Continent maps, and get my butt kicked routinely regardless of civilization I play. I feel maybe I'm not being as efficient as I could be in the first 100-150 turns or so. Here is general my build order:

Warrior; Worker; Warrior; Warrior; Settler; Warrior; Warrior; Settler, and repeat until I run out of money or room.

Workers are often later than Settlers. This does depend ofcourse, which is why general is bolded. Would you take the same approach as Lanun with three seafood? It'd be suboptimal. Would you go for a Worker/Settler this early if you had a Goblin Fort in your bfc and clan next door? I believe I understand the "general" term here, but normally, there is no general "right" approach. It is extremely dependant on rivals, civ, land and even settings.

I try to pick techs relevant to my situation, but in general I speed towards Festivals to keep my economy afloat, and completely ignore religion and magic beyond Mysticism. I also try to get to Bronze Working as fast as possible.

While BW and Fest are good and solid techs, they're mundane. You'd do a great Doviello with BW and some money, but a very poor Amurite. Same point as above: Adjust to the civ you are! Never going further than Mysticism for magic is ridiculous as Amurite or Sheaim. Not seeing any early recon for Svartalfar is normally considered a wrong priority (but is SITUATIONAL). Likewise, religion is essential to civs such as Malakim.

So here are the problems or concerns I consistently run into:

1. I need to war against a neighbor that is boxing me in. By the time I have a respectible axeman army its in the late 100s. I can take a new city or two but, especially builder civs, have always got archers or walls that chew me up.

What is wrong with Warriors? Try a good game of Doviello or Clan (or perhaps Calabim) to get a feel for it - you can take out a close neighboor more often than not - no reason to wait to wait for Archers or walls (these close the "rush" gap imo, like in BtS. But unlike in BtS, Warriorrush is viable because archers are so much later).

2. When should I start investing in magic? usually its an afterthought that I don't look into until turn 200 or so. Am I really missing on something vital that will give my army the edge it needs at that point? I know Enchant Blade is great, any other level 1 wonder spells?

Depends. If you have lots of mana nodes, it's usually a good idea to go atleast KotE and one adept tech (Necromancy, Divination, etc.).

Enchantment and Mind are nice at level 1. Chaos can be too. Nature and Earth are good on defense. A single Fire or Water adept is good to have aswell.

The sooner you get adepts, the sooner you get mages.

3. Should I try to grab a war-monger religion before I start fighting? Are OO and Kilmorph the only early-game religions good for that, and how soon should I have it?

I have practically no experience with Kilmorph, but several of the other religions have nice units and heroes. Whether grabbing a religion before warring is worth it depends on the situation. If your neighboor is Kuriotates and you can amass 15 units now or wait 50 turns and have 5 priests aswell, strike immidiately.

I mostly just wonder if I'm moving fast enough, and if not, why not. The turns really fly by in the early game, and sometimes I'll look at the turn count, see its 215, and I only have 4 or 5 cities and 10 axemen with a 30% chance against their enemy counterparts.

Stalling a city early for a Worker can really slow you down. That said, you need to play your situation. Getting enough cities as a matter of City States civic.

Sorry if I'm rough :sad:
 
Thank you all for replies, and please keep it up.

Regarding economy, it seems no matter what civilization I play, unless my capital starts near three luxury resources or something, I have got to get festivals as early as possible. my first explorers might get me some starting money from goody huts, but as soon as I settle my second city my income is negative and unsustainable for more than a few turns without really kicking research in the teeth.

But what other options do I have to get money? As far as I know I can't even get a Great Merchant without festivals in the first place.
 
Aristocracy farms with Agrarian. Take your 50% science rate like a man, its normal. By the late game it'll be back up at 90% even on Immortal/Deity difficulty.
 
Hm, remember that while festivals will put you back into the green and thus make your economy look strong, it doesn't actually do anything to help your science. For example, running an economy based on festivals with three cities may get you to 90% science at +1gpt, but what good is that when you only have 16 commerce and your science output is 14bpt? I find that going for commerce-boosting techs, rather than money-boosting techs like festivals, is the only way to keep me in the game tech-wise. Shoot for Calendar if you have plantation resources, or CoL if you're financial, or education.
 
Hi Bramble! I'll give you my take. I'm not the best player out there, but I hope you will find this useful!

Warriors, Workers, Settlers

I also play on Emperor and sometimes large maps. I do find with 'normal' settings the early game is the toughest part of the game -- usually once you get to the 'middle game' you can get your 'tricks' working.

As others have said, I find FfH is just too variable to ‘fix’ a strategy. My first rule is to tie research to building. That is, make sure you can use your builds. A worker shouldn’t be built if there is little use for it. You may see a rice in your fat cross and say, ‘I want to farm it’. You then spend 15 turns, research agriculture, build a worker, he farms the rice, and then …If the worker has nothing to do, you have wasted early resources. If you have one such resource, you may be better off going for exploration, building a warrior or a scout, and then going for agriculture and a worker. Then, the worker can build roads and connect you to your next city after improving the rice.

For this reason, you may want to get some warriors and one settler or so before workers, because workers will not have as many important tasks. Once you have agriculture, mining, and education though, you want a lot of workers, I would recommend almost 2/city. Also, if you play with Blessing of Amatheon, you want the workers faster since there will be more goodies and if there are goodies, you want to use them.

Assess your starting situation. If you have sea resources, it can be very nice since you can build workboats while having population grow so you might want to get fishing fast. Otherwise, decide if you have a ‘killer’ starting site. If you have a scout, look around, concentrate on seeing nearby areas for city placement.

Settlers Vs Big Capital

If you think your starting city is very good, but surrounding terrain isn’t as good, build your capital up, get it going, and then churn out settlers. Conversely, if the area has good sites, concentrate more on units and settlers and grabbing the cities before the opponents do. If you are concentrating on a good home site, try to get ancient chants and mysticism to switch to god king fast. This will help with money and building troops. If you are building settlers, exploration should be emphasized; you will want to tie your cities with roads for defense on high levels.

My most important rule is that in FfH, much more so than in BtS, you HAVE TO GET MONEY FOR RESEARCH. Given that the basic techs can take a while, if you don’t have a good economy and you get 4 or 5 cities you will be bankrupt by turn 150 perhaps before you have education meaning you are ’stuck’. This may be my most useful advice, decide quickly how you will finance yourself. The super city is easier since you won’t be building settlers and as many troops early and won’t have a lot of maintenance, but with this strategy you have to churn out the settlers once you are large.

So, if you have gold or gems, try to get mining right away, these really help. I had one game where my starting city had 3 wines, I went for crafting and a worker built wineries. If you don’t have a lot of money from goody huts, or money producing resources, it is important to get education fast or go for the aristocracy/farms strategy.

Empire is Shut in and Military Builds

Your military builds should somewhat be a function of what you see around you. If the Doviello or Clan of embers is next door, you better watch the power graph closely.

If you find yourself shut in, especially if you haven’t built a lot of cities, it is time to conquer. It may seem difficult with low production from few cities, but since you haven’t built settlers or workers you can build lots of troops. In this case, build warriors, churn them out. Get bronze working and all of your warriors are 4’s, a warrior rush can work nicely (although if you move up to immortal it is a decent amount harder). One of the reasons that conquering is easier than it may seem is that if you lose half of your troops in the first warrior rush, and take the first city, your surviving winning warriors have more experience, and you get a building bias toward stronger troops.

Festivals, Magic Users, and Technology

I think of festivals as a low priority. You will need all of the basics and rather quickly, meaning ancient chants, mysticism, education, mining, agriculture, and then the ‘second order’ basic techs, calendar, cartography, and possibly archery if you want to build lumber mills. Again, this isn’t a hard and fast rule, and I often delay the last three techs pretty long. If my starting city has hills, I usually try to agriculture and mining fast, hammers are very important in the tough early game.

Warriors will often do the trick early, but you want to deicide what you will do for defense pretty early. You may move up either bronze working (if you have copper especially) or hunting to get some stronger troops. Hunting is really good if you build a lot of cities, and also if you have a lot to explore because they have some punch and are fast. Bronze working will give you more punch and if you have copper, will make all of your warriors stronger.

I usually consider building adepts as my first ‘luxury’ build. Magic is very powerful, early it is largely an ‘enhancer’. Magic becomes even more powerful later so the earlier you build them, the better. I agree with Kael that enchantment and body are very strong early, and there are other good ones too. If you have a lot of desert, by all means get water magic fast.

After the basic techs, the next group is the powerful enhancers, like bronze working, hunting, knowledge of the ether, sanitation, warfare, mathematics/engineering, writing, smelting iron working, masonry and construction etc. Festivals is best if you have gone the hunter route since captured animals can be used for happiness. I put the religions in right here also, in most cases. If there is an unfounded religion that ‘fits’ you may want to move it up. The key here is deciding what kind of campaign you are trying to wage.

Of course, each Civ has its ‘thing’. The Ljosalfar will want FoL pretty quickly. On larger maps, I tend to move religions up since there will be more cities and therefore the shrines are more valuable. Religions are very powerful so think this through. If you are the clan, bee line for construction and warrens, put in bronze working, cast your world spell, I assure you, you can conquer everything. Believe it or not, the Clan is one of the best for getting magic early, put enchanted blade on this large stack without needing mage guilds and that 20% bump can be critical. Of course the Hippus want Stirrups.

In FfH the specific civilization differences make the game more detailed, but they also help lead you to a strategy. On higher levels, the value of using unique benefits of each Civ becomes more important.

Finally, if you are a slow starting Civ like the Amurites and are sandwiched between the Doviello and the Clan and Orthus comes after you, well, you can always start another game!

Why am I Falling Behind?

I think it is because Emperor is tough! Seriously, I remember wondering why I sometime struggle on emperor and have real trouble with immortal. I then saw my son play and saw how he does it. There isn’t a single ‘trick’, which was somewhat relieving; I wasn’t missing some big trick or major. Rather, he is a little better than I am at every aspect of the game. The biggest difference between his playing and mine, though, is exactly what we are talking about in this thread – he is better at using synergy in characteristics, techs, etc. and tailoring the strategy to the environment.



Best wishes,
 
Building many settlers is not always good. As you know, cities stop growing while building settlers.

So I recommend to rush to build "Pact of Nilhorn" (need to research "Cartography" tech first)
It gives you three Hill Giants, who are perfect city attacker. They can down the city defense, so no need to build siege weapon(and so you don't need to wait till "Construction" tech was done) and since their base strength is higher than most of early units, with proper promotions, they can deal with enemy archers as well.

So it gives not just three good warriors, it actually gives you several new cities!! With proper use, of course. (they are HN units at first, so if you want to keep that promotions, you need to send at least one other unit with them to take the enemy city after combat)

And as the number of you cities grows, their maintenance costs will be problem. Cartography tech enables City States civ, which helps you down the maintenance costs.

Stabilizing Economy is always crucial. So research "Education" early and build cottages.

Don't forget to defend your cities against barbarians. There is often some spot(one or two tiles) that is the only way to enter your territory from other regions. Placing best defense units there may be very efficient to save many warriors elsewhere.:)

One last thing..
Building many farms in the early stage is not a good idea in most cases. Usually the initial max happiness in a city is 5 or 6. So although your food is enough and the population grows to be more than that, it's useless. So before you can get enough happiness points(through buildings or civ or trade), building cottages and mines would be better. Mines get you production boost.
 
Thanks for all the new input.

Some people suggested agrarianism and aristocracy for an early economy, so i tried it. I only had 3 cities but my science slider had to be 60%. Education was 45 turns but luckily I got the great artist event and rushed that. Code of laws was even longer. Am I really supposed to spend almost 100 turns researching those two things right away? At least with festivals Calendar gave me a useful civic and worker build option, and Festival itself actually costs less than Calendar to research and wasn't a big detour tech-wise. What am I doing wrong?
 
I'd recommend looking at some of the specific civ guides (for those civs that have them) for tips on exploiting your civs' abilities, traits, Worldspell, heroes, etc. Most of them give possible tech paths and most of them try to balance the fact that you sometimes need to take care of other immediate threats and opportunities.

So much is situational; I know on the Deity pangaea maps I use, I often have to queue up five warriors right off the bat and I'm still narrowly avoiding a first round knockout by Orthus and his band of toughs or some other barbarian thugs. And then, one of the first Civs sends over a 20 axemen/swordmen stack to try its luck.
 
Thanks for all the new input.

Some people suggested agrarianism and aristocracy for an early economy, so i tried it. I only had 3 cities but my science slider had to be 60%. Education was 45 turns but luckily I got the great artist event and rushed that. Code of laws was even longer. Am I really supposed to spend almost 100 turns researching those two things right away? At least with festivals Calendar gave me a useful civic and worker build option, and Festival itself actually costs less than Calendar to research and wasn't a big detour tech-wise. What am I doing wrong?

I'd say no. Again, it all depends on the situation, but as long as you have atleast a few gold-income-bringing resources, as in a few silks or similair, making education and CoL the number one priority is usually a bad idea. I'd aim for it around 4-5-6 cities, if necessary. Then again, I'm a great early God King-fan myself.

The key here is ofcourse that in those hundred turns there is usually something else worth researching that will give a quicker benefit and increase your overall rise to power, so to speak. Perhaps it is a tech that will bring in some resources, perhaps it is god king to enhance a good capitol, perhaps city states is needed as an intermediary untill you've gotten a few well populated cities up to work all those future aristocratic farms.
 
Thanks for all the new input.

Some people suggested agrarianism and aristocracy for an early economy, so i tried it. I only had 3 cities but my science slider had to be 60%. Education was 45 turns but luckily I got the great artist event and rushed that. Code of laws was even longer. Am I really supposed to spend almost 100 turns researching those two things right away? At least with festivals Calendar gave me a useful civic and worker build option, and Festival itself actually costs less than Calendar to research and wasn't a big detour tech-wise. What am I doing wrong?

Heh, you did it the wrong way round. When going Aristo-grarian I go something like this.

Agriculture --> Calendar (adopt agrarian) --> Crafting --> Mining (look for copper to settle beside) --> Chants --> Education (build a few cottages while waiting for CoL) --> CoL (Adopt aristocracy).

It will still be slow - thats just the way FFH works. But with Agrarian farms and mining you can either spam settlers or warriors while waiting to get CoL.

Its important to do good recon at the start of the game. If you can find Dyes, Incense or Gold to settle beside then the commerce value from them can shave 10 turns off both Education and CoL.
 
In my opinion Education is the most important tech in the early game if there's no good supply of specific commerce resources available. Some people like the aristofarm strategy, but I have always seen the cottage economy as the better choice. It of course depends on your exact situation.

Like said, cottages make good spoils for possible attackers while farms don't and are easily replaced. Farms also grow to their full potential right away. But if you have workers ready you can make good use of the time the cottages take to grow while you still have to research the Code of Laws - which may very well not be the optimal next tech for you to research if you, for example, find some Doviello neighbours.

The other problem with aristofarms is that they limit you to the aristocracy and essentially the agriculture civic too. I often find city states essential with a bigger empire. God King can also be a very good civic if you only have a few cities or have a nice holy city, especially with the Bazaar of Mammon and the Brewing House and other such buildings.


For early warfare I like the Octopus Overlords religion. If you have a temple of the overlords in one of your cities you can upgrade your warriors to drowns there for half the gold it would take to upgrade them to axemen. Drowns also make excellent attackers on the coast. A little bit further the tech line you can get Cultists at Priesthood which make coastal invasions a breeze.
 
almost every civ has a completely unique play style... oh, and move to like noble or prince in the beginning, also what type of player are you? warmonger, builder, hybrid?
 
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