I = suck, you = help?

toob

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1. Agreed. 4+ yrs of playing (off and on) means I shouldn't be stuck on Prince.

2. I always play Rand/Rand/Rand (terrain, sea level, civ).

3. In a previous life, I apparently raped the RNG's daughter in front of him/her, because he/she *HATES* me.

To wit:

RNG stabs me in the back #1 ...
Spoiler :
My starting position



Of course, no bronze (RNG hate #2), but - hallelujah - horses:
Spoiler :
But the horse's location sucks (RNG hate #3)



It's a continents map, so I have a couple of friends ...
Spoiler :
Catherine, Elizabeth, Mansa Musa (RNG hate #4 bc Catherine, closest, is Creative, and the other two are Financial); the latter two are way NE of Moscow



I've played so far til 1862 (and still just learning Printing Press; way behind here too). Conquered Catherine in 1160 AD - shoulda been sooner - and am deep into conquering Elizabeth (have London, York [Taoism city, no Dai Miao of course - RNG hates me #5], Coventry, troops outside Nottingham).

Spoiler :
Here's what I mean (the highlighted troops are SE of Nottingham)



But I'm really asking, how should I have started this, considering the crappy starting location (silk = suck bc no extra food, barely grasslands for extra growth, even watermills aren't helpful early enough).

Help!

PS - how do I embed images online? I looked at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...YQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHsGJrOXtwRZeMu1T_UT58ScawHig but no luck.
 
My opening save file is attached.

I always save before I even move my scout/warrior (scout here), so this is a brand new save.

As far as the user name goes, read it backwards out loud. You'll get it ;) ...
 

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Copy the the stuff in the first Forum Code field in Imageshack and just paste it in - no IMG links needed - and your pics will show up in your post.

I recommend playing BTS.

Looking at your last screenshot it obviously appears that you do not use enough siege. At least half your stack should be siege - trebs/cannons at this stage. Siege makes the RNG your beeeoootch, and siege kills in Vanilla and Warlords.

Strategy & Tips forum is a great place to improve your game.
 
Well I don't think blaming the RNG for EVERYTHING is really the way to improve, yeah that start is probably below average, but you have to make the best of what you have. The two gold in Moscow's BFC can help pay the maintenance for your first few cities, you have iron (? hard to tell without the resource bubbles), so think more about your situation rather than how much the RNG screws you, I mean, moaning about coming up against Financial Civs? Come on...
 
lymond, thanks for the response.

Trying the "Copy the stuff in the first Forum Code field in Imageshack and just paste it in - no IMG links needed" part ... without spoiler tags just to try ...

[Repaste of screenshot #4]
http://imageshack.us/f/837/civ4screenshot0004x.jpg

I'm using {url}http://...{/url} (s/{/[/; s/}/]/; -- sed syntax) but not getting it in the preview screen. Anything more specific?

---

BTS is on the soon-to-buy-but-need-cash list, no doubt.

About siege, I have 5 of 7 cities just producing cannons, but like my capital those cities just aren't good for production. The last screenshot shows only 1 cannon and 1 catapult, but more are on the way; this was just after I suicided several to weaken her defenses and keep her from attacking my stack. (I've since played to 1920, and plenty of cannons have made it easy pickings.)

About S&T, I want to say I've read enough, but you're right, I haven't. I went through sulla's intro story (where he plays Saladin, early in the Civ4 release schedule), and a few general strategy articles. Could you recommend a post or two regarding early game, or a search keyword or two? Especially what to do pre-iron (since the RNG hates me, so never [rarely] do I have copper)? I'm reading Beginners Guide to the First 100 Moves but it doesn't seem to describe anything I'm not doing.
 
ewht91, thanks for the response.

Sorry I came across as moaning, that wasn't really my intent. I have bad luck with luck, so I tend to complain about it.

Iron is in my capital's (Berlin) BFC, 1SE+1E. I'll turn on resource bubbles for all future screenshots.

How would you handle the two gold squares in Moscow? I farmed the 3 grass tiles that are fresh water to produce extra food, but that still leaves me one food short of working two no-food tiles (the gold). I prefer watermills, but knew I needed irrigation to even have a chance at the gold.

I have a lighthouse, so water tiles give two food. The horses are pastured, so I can't gain extra food there. Pre-civsvc I can't irrigate beyond the fresh water tiles. How do you take a city with minimal bonus food, like Berlin or Moscow, and allow them to work no-food tiles (plains/hills, tundra/hills, etc)?
 
ewht91, another thought.

When I met the two financial civs during my exploration of the continent, my first plan was to take them out (after Catherine, since her Creative trait meant I had no chance to push her cities back).

Would that be your plan, or would you prefer other means (and what would they be)? I accepted Mansa's religion when it came to me, just to get him Friendly. What else would you have tried?
 
toob - I think something got lost in translation there...ha

I meant the first field labeled "Forums" when you select 'Share it'. My use of "code" may have been misleading as I was just referring to the contents of the field.

I'm posting a pic in spoilers below. Click the "Quote" button on my post and you can see the tags behind my post. What you copy should look similar. (Note: The stuff after and including "By" can always be deleted if you don't want it there. I usually do but I'm leaving it so that you see the right code)

Spoiler :

By eclarkdog at 2011-05-01


What you have been copying is the Direct Link to the image.

Another good image sight I've start to use is called imgur

Edit: Saw your responses above.

In Civ 4, Food is production. If you are trying to get an army out fast, don't be afraid to use the whip "slavery". Late game if you have a good cottaged empire going you can try Universal Suffrage for rush buying siege units and don't forget the Draft for Nationhood. When you commit to war you commit to it.

The best place to look for articles is in the Civ IV War Academy. Check the Menu at the top. The S&T forum is a good place to ask these kinds of questions and also to follow some of the games there, although the games are almost 100% BTS.
 
To show that your advice worked, here's a picture of the empire as of 1940. Elizabeth has one city on the very southeast tip of my continent (should have taken it but plum forgot) and a crappy one on the southern tip of the Huayna Capac / Saladin continent. Alexander has the other one.

Spoiler :



By taking Elizabeth down, I've gone from deep in 6th place to 3nd, 60 points behind Saladin but still 400 behind Mansa Musa.
 
I'm reading Beginners Guide to the First 100 Moves but it doesn't seem to describe anything I'm not doing.
Thats really not the best guide, a lot of the stuff there is very questionable, particularly the Warrior first start and the idea that Serfdom is good :confused:.
If you read the posts following the article you will find that the thread actually turned into a learning thread for the original poster!

The standard guide would be Sisiutil's Stategy Guide for Beginners, the only problem in that guide is that idea that you shouldn't expand below 60% science.
 
The standard guide would be Sisiutil's Stategy Guide for Beginners, the only problem in that guide is that idea that you shouldn't expand below 60% science.

Thanks, Ghpstage, for replying.

I have indeed read that guide, and another by Sisiutil, the axe rush one I think.

I do have the problem, seemingly every game, of being bogged down at 0% research during Machinery / Civil Service research. The last few games I've avoided that by deleting any units after my first war that have no promotions. That helps, but it's only 1s and 2s, not the 50s and 90s of wealth that I need. Any thoughts along those lines? Making enough wealth to keep the research slider off zero?
 
I do have the problem, seemingly every game, of being bogged down at 0% research during Machinery / Civil Service research. The last few games I've avoided that by deleting any units after my first war that have no promotions. That helps, but it's only 1s and 2s, not the 50s and 90s of wealth that I need. Any thoughts along those lines? Making enough wealth to keep the research slider off zero?
Would need to see an example to find the exact cause, but its probably one of the usual suspects.
The most common newbie mistake is to be working unimproved tiles, and is usually caused by not having enough workers.
 
Would need to see an example to find the exact cause, but its probably one of the usual suspects.
The most common newbie mistake is to be working unimproved tiles, and is usually caused by not having enough workers.

Good sussing there.

Here's an example civ where I have no research during that stage:
Spoiler :



I'm Alexander here, so my capital is Athens. I'm researching Alphabet (Alphabet!) in 900AD, at 20% on the slider.

Athens isn't working the spices bc I don't have calendar:
Spoiler :



The two forests by the river eventually get chopped for watermills, but the outer two, which I'm working, are left for lumbermills/health. But I'm working them for the hammer meanwhile - is this what you mean?

At 900 AD I have 5 cities (Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thermapolyae, and Delphi) and 4 workers (1 building a workshop on the Flood Plains 1N of Athens, 2 building a mine on a grassland tile 1NE of Corinth, and 1 building a mine on a plains/hills 1S of Delphi).
 

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guideline is 1,5 workers per city ... unless you're very experienced (ie. at the point where you know excactly why you aren't, and the cost/benefit) higher is better

in your screen from Athens your only working 2 improved tiltes ... cottage those FP's

Delphi is worse than useless having no food slap middle of crappy land ...

way to much roadbuilding vs tile improvment, roads are (again, unless you specificly know the cost/benefit, usually if you need it to get a settler somewhere faster) the last thing to build, not the first thing to build

workshops is next to useless untill at least 3 of Guild/chemistry/state proverty/Caste system
 
guideline is 1,5 workers per city ... unless you're very experienced (ie. at the point where you know excactly why you aren't, and the cost/benefit) higher is better

in your screen from Athens your only working 2 improved tiltes ... cottage those FP's

Delphi is worse than useless having no food slap middle of crappy land ...

way to much roadbuilding vs tile improvment, roads are (again, unless you specificly know the cost/benefit, usually if you need it to get a settler somewhere faster) the last thing to build, not the first thing to build

workshops is next to useless untill at least 3 of Guild/chemistry/state proverty/Caste system

Sian, thanks for responding.

You say cottage the FPs by Athens. I always hesitate to cottage bc I don't like to turn towns into Watermills, etc, since towns are so valuable, but I know I'll want to watermill those tiles asap. You're right though: FPs already give extra food, so cottaging has to be the right call there. Unless I can see in the city screen that I'm not going to gain any plus food, where I like to cottage every grassland tile. (Look at Yaroslavl' in my first save game attachment for an example of where I like to cottage.)

Regarding road building, you have to be right about that - I do way too much. I only need 1 route between cities, so I'll cut that back immediately.

Delphi is indeed a crappy city, but I needed one somewhere. Would you have placed it differently, or not built it in the first place?

And I love workshops, especially on FPs, but your advice to wait til the right techs is well taken; I'll adjust that strategy immediately too. I'm probably too willing to gain the hammers before they're worth enough. Why do you say Caste System? Wouldn't it, if I were to want extra specialists, be more efficient then to farm them and turn the extra +2 food into specialists?
 
Theres no reason you can't replace an improvement later on, however it is very important to improve your strongest tiles ASAP. In the case of your Alex game capital those would be the corn, floodplains and the sugars.

Workshops this early actually decrease the strength of a tile as 1:food:>1:hammers:, don't build them till you have Chemistry and Guilds. Caste was mentioned because you get an extra hammer for workshops while running it in the Beyond the Sword expansion, but it isn't relevant here.

I played (badly!) from 4000BC to 1AD on your Alex game to get something for you to compare to. Feels weird playing vanilla again :crazyeye:

Empire overview
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Capital
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Techs
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Hey Toob - Just looking at your screenshots above and your description, that does look really pretty bad. As GPH mentioned, you need to get improvements up asap. Here's some major issues as I see them:

1) Athens - I'm not sure of the RNG start generator on Vanilla but it appears that you may have moved your settler into a bad position. Only 1 hill in the BFC and all those sea tiles from the lake. Not sure what your thinking here was, but having not seen seafood I would be inclined to, if I moved my settler, to move it into a better position to balance food and hammers.

2) I think you may have overlooked parts in strategy articles about city specialization. Look to setup commerce cities (cottages), production cities(food/hammers) and a GP farm (food). The capitol is often a hybrid Bureau cap with lots of cottages if the land permits, not always though.

3) The lack of improvements in AThens and elsewhere just can't happen. Decide what you want and make it happen asap. Get the food specials up first, then other specials/strat resource, mines and then decide if you are going to cottage up for Bureau or just go straight production. Sometimes the cap start is such high food that you make your GP farm eventually and move the cap to a better bureau site.

4) The lack of improvements seem to be a combination of poor overall decisions and lack of workers. However, I see a copious amount of unnecessary roads. All you need is to link up your cities with a road for trade routes, but workers should be focused early on getting tile improvements up and chopping. Later, once workers have less to do they can go around building roads everywhere.

5)
but I know I'll want to watermill those tiles asap

This statement doesn't make much sense. Basically you are saying to get up watermills asap, but they don't come around until Machinery. Watermills are a fine improvement in the right cities and with the right tech (Replaceable Parts, Communism), but not improving your land in expectation of a later tech is not good. Farm or cottage those tiles depending on the city time. Decide later if you are going to turn a city into a workshop/watermill/windmill hammer paradise later, but get the bonus you can get now -- ASAP. I would not bulldoze developed cottage cities though unless doing so late for the space race to build parts faster, but you need the commerce early to get to those part techs.

5) City placement. Unless you are Creative, you need to settle your cities near specials, especially food to get them up and running quickly. Besides settling what appears to be fairly poor land in the first place, I notice that most of your cities are settled such that they have no specials in the first ring of your BFC. This means that you have to slow wait for your Monument to build and then 10 turns before you can even improve a good food or hammer tile. These cities are basically useless and not contributing for 100 of years.

6) Spart is okay, but it seems you may have settled in the wrong direction. Hard for me to say since I don't know what the mapped/scouting look like early. Block of some good land toward the AI and seal of land to your back which you can backfill later. Or get up 2 or 3 good cities and go out and conquer some better land.

7) Teching Alpha at 900AD is a bit odd. If you don't tech Alpha directly it is something you should easily trade for much sooner than now. You want Alpha at some point fairly soon to start tech trading. I'm wondering here if you are trading techs at all. It is an important part of the game, although on lower levels you don't have to do it much once you get good enough at that level since you will start out-teching the AIs by quite a bit. Still, tech trading allows you to keep a focused research path based on your strategy and then backfill some of the overlooked early techs via tech trading.

7) Great People - Not sure of your use of them based on just the screenshots, but they are important. Get a library up asap, usually in your cap so that you can get your first Great Scientist for an academy, again usually placed in your cap. The academy will boost your research rate significantly. Later, find a good spot for a GP farm city. A high food city where you put the National Epic and use it to pump Great People. Specialist building go here, but you can also get out a lot of them by running Caste for a bit mid-game - even starving the city a bit to pump out Great People faster. This can set up some key tech bulbs in the mid-game to provide you an advantage. (Note: BTS adds a lot of new features, one of which is no-anarchy civic switches and GPP boost during a golden age, which is a great time to run Caste System and pump GPs)

8) A very important tech that you generally want to bee-line or trade for fairly early is Currency. IMO the most important tech in the game. It immediate boosts trade route income, allows gold trade for techs and resources, and allows you to build wealth to fund expansion, research and/or warfare. Make sure you are trading extra resources for gold per turn. I even trade some single resources if I don't need them. For instance, trade copper if you have iron or trade health resources if you are Expansive. The extra gold means extra research.

The most important point though that you need to take now is that you need to have more workers and you need to improve your land. Do not work unimproved tiles and do not automate your workers.
 
Lots of good points here ...

Too few workers / too few improvements. Definitely an issue. I definitely road too much. And I'm really bad about saving tiles for improvements that come later (machinery ones, mostly). I did figure out during that Alexander game to mine grassland hills and then windmill over them later, so I'm learning.

City placement / specialization. I do some of the specialization, and I'm learning to recognize at least the GP farm (whichever has the best food bonus in the BFC). I have a mental block with having my cities overlap their crosses though, which is another thing I'm working on. (Hamburg in my Bismarck game, for example, overlaps on one of the silk tiles with Berlin.)

Tech trading. This is one I'm never good at. It just keeps slipping my mind, so I never get around to it. Need much work here.

About Currency, I have no love for that tech! I probably get it too late, but I always check my slider before and after getting it and it never seems to change much. It always comes during my 0-20% research phase, 1000BC - 1000AD seemingly every game. I check all the cities, they have the extra trade routes, but I can almost never move the slider. I'll beeline this one earlier to see if it's my timing, not its value that I'm missing.

Great people I do make use of. This is pretty new to my game as of recently, and I tend to always produce engineers and scientists. I use the National Epic, even if I rarely want to produce a Great Artist. (I also use the Heroic Epic and set that city to produce units all game long.) I almost always try to get the Statue of Liberty for the free specialist.

I build a barracks and a library in almost every city almost every game. Is this too much do you think?
 
Sian, thanks for responding.

You say cottage the FPs by Athens. I always hesitate to cottage bc I don't like to turn towns into Watermills, etc, since towns are so valuable, but I know I'll want to watermill those tiles asap. You're right though: FPs already give extra food, so cottaging has to be the right call there. Unless I can see in the city screen that I'm not going to gain any plus food, where I like to cottage every grassland tile. (Look at Yaroslavl' in my first save game attachment for an example of where I like to cottage.)

Early game the SE is more powerful than the CE, because the civics that give bonuses to cottages (1 hammer, 2 commerce) aren't available and cottages grow extra slow in the early game. For that reason my preference for what to do prior to Machinery with FPs in a production city is to farm them. In the early game you can either slave-whip that extra food for units or buildings, and with some key buildings like libraries you can run scientists. With more buildings later you can run other specialists like merchants, etc., (anything but artists) for additional yield bonuses from the city. By the time Machinery comes along you can watermill the FPs and err a little more on the side of hammers rather than food (and emphasisze more specialist flips over whipping as a way to use the food).

If a FP city is destined for commerce (like those snakey desert rivers where FPs are all over and there's sometimes a gold or incense in the BFC), then yes, cottage the FPs early and just let them grow.

Regarding road building, you have to be right about that - I do way too much. I only need 1 route between cities, so I'll cut that back immediately.

To clarify, each city should have a relatively direct route road to each of its nearby cities. This is a military perspective on how to do more with less defensively (AIs send stacks typically to only one city, so a highly mobile response force along direct route roads is a force multiplier on counterattack). If an existing route to a resource is "sort of" along the way, I still build a more direct route to minimize the travel time of a counterattack unit stack to the other cities. This is especially the case near borders. Back home defensive roads needn't be quite so direct since the counterattack stack will be staging in a forward area, although making more direct routes with workers that would otherwise be idle, could give a slight edge toward military agility.

And I love workshops, especially on FPs, but your advice to wait til the right techs is well taken; I'll adjust that strategy immediately too. I'm probably too willing to gain the hammers before they're worth enough. Why do you say Caste System? Wouldn't it, if I were to want extra specialists, be more efficient then to farm them and turn the extra +2 food into specialists?

IMO workshops are like watermills that aren't along a river: you build them later, but in the early-mid game they get farmed over. In the early-early game if you can't farm 'em, cottage them up (but don't work them as much as your river tiles with farms. 1 or 2 commerce is not as good of a yield as even just 1 extra food that can go into whip-regrowth or running specialists).
 
Skallagrimson, thanks a lot for your advice.

I started a new game, drew Huayna Capac which is my favorite civ (but I always play Random civ), and did much better this time. I have 6 cities by 1 AD (built the 6th city IN 1 AD), 9 workers (might be 7 with 2 being built), got Alphabet before the change in era, and am still running 60%+ research.

Here's my overall civ:
Spoiler :



But I really want to ask you about two cities, Cori and Olla.

Corihuayrachina:
Spoiler :



Ollantaytambo:
Spoiler :



Which of these would you turn into production (watermills, Heroic Epic, etc) and which would you cottage the bejingo out of?

I'm currently leaning Olla for production and Cori for commerce, but I'm open to suggestions.

(In 225 AD, Genghis Khan declares war on me unprovoked, so I'm running 10% research and every city is building units, but that's just war; I think I'm playing well otherwise.)

Saves at 4000 BC and 1 AD attached. My user name is an indication of how much help I've gotten from everyone in this thread :p ...
 

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