I think I'm giving up the game...

[Sonereal]

Really?

How are the Germans or Ottomans meant to be played then?

Well, if you're not being warlike with the Germans, you're wasting their Panzer UU and if you're not striking at barb camps, you're missing out on the UA altogether.

And the Ottomans are pretty warlike as well. Two awesome UUs and a lackluster UA that was supposed to be good? The latter part is made up by the former.

 

[maccool]

Thanks for those of you thoughtfully posting in this thread. It helped clarify my reactions. I played the demo and was left feeling that this was not the game for me. Flat play, kind quirky AI reactions.

I didn't buy/play civ 4 until I could see there were good mods out there (I only started playing civ 4 last year). The hard thing about making these decisions is that no one ever goes back and updates the demos to reflect the current state of the game with the newest patches and/or sanctioned expansion mods.

I was hoping for enough to check out civ 5. It's not there. See you again in 2 to 5 years.

 

[Quueg]

To be fair, modding is marginally easier in CiV thanks to Modbuddy (which is reallllly nice).

Modbuddy is nice, but I find modding to be much more difficult in Civ V. In Civ IV, the loading screen showed the various files loading, and if the game hung up you could see what file was the problem. With Civ V, you have no clue - which results in hours of trial and error trying to find the offending file.

 

[Helmling]

Stirrups were invented by nomads in the steppes of Central Asia - because they had to cover huge distance on horses - not by farmers tied to their hoes in the Nile valley. That's what I want to see - an interaction between the player and the environment that produces something unique. There's nothing linear about it. It's called coherency.



Kael is a professional - like I said. For those like me who aren't it's a chore. Besides modding could be made user friendly with a full fledged editor which could also be another source of income for the publisher. I'd pay for that. Wanna change the prereqs of a tech - click here - pull down this menu. Instead we have to get 'under the hood' so to speak.




G.

You and I should collaborate. That interaction between player and environment is EXACTLY how I would want the tech tree to work in my mod. Man, I wish I could do this--but I've never been under the hood and I'm sure the learning curve would take too much from me.

 

[Reginleif]

You should start playing Nintendo games. See signature below.

 

[Helmling]

I know the feeling... even though you seem to be looking for something different than me it's the same 'let down' feeling. The problem with this franchise is that it hasn't evolved. What was new 20 years ago is now stale.

I mean the theory behind the game hasn't evolved - even if the mechanics are now vastly improved. At its core Civ is a tactical wargame - *not* the simulator of the development of civilizations the title might suggest. That is what I'm personally looking for. There are limitations present in V that irked me in all the other versions - so you can imagine how aggravating they've become after 20 years.

- the premise is flawed - a civilization to stand the test of time. No civilization last - they all die. Their worth isn't judged by their lifespan but rather by what they accomplished, the level of civilization they reached.

- time is limited, constricted, rigged! We're still forced to play with the absurd BC/AD scheme and to my knowledge we're still capped at 6050 years of play;

- all the Civs are essentially the same and interchangeable. There's no distinction between them other than one special unit or building and the color scheme - in other words: fluff!

- all Civs have to go down the same path or researching tech A to get B to get C - down to the end game. They (and we) are all herded in the same direction, no matter what. It's linear and boring!

- because Civs are as described above we get no feeling of what it's like to be Egypt in the Middle Kingdom era for instance. Or Rome at the peak of its power. Look at Paradox' "Europa Universalis" series for an example of what I mean here;

- modding has become so complicated that only professionals can do it with meaningful effects. Hell I've been trying to mod the simplistic tech tree to flesh it out as I did with Civ III but I'm completely lost - and the Paxton guide isn't helpful. Besides I have zero interest in spending my time climbing the learning curve of XML database inter-relationships or LUA subtleties. I want to play the game, not work a second job! And in any case, even the professionals will run into hard-coded road blocks such as the absurd time scheme.

I guess I'm frustrated because Civ could be so much more than what it is now. The game has no depth. It's like ... getting a cheap burger when you want a steak. The burger might be tasty for what it is but its not a steak!




G.

I agree wholeheartedly on almost every point. I would really love to dive in and mod something with more depth, and that isn't a numbers game. I think the developers shy away from it because they don't want to make the game too complex.

But if the game was focused on the opportunity costs of decisions--as in decisions taking players in different directions without each choice having a clear optimal decision, like trading posts in Civ 5--then it could really create a richer experience.

I have so many ideas about how to do that, but just don't have the time...

 

[ClarenceSeedorf]

So wait..you've played the game 300+ hours and now you feel the need to tell everyone on the forum how easy the game is and that you don't feel any joy in playing it?


Dude...srsly. Go spend some time wit the wife and kids.

 

[Helmling]

So wait..you've played the game 300+ hours and now you feel the need to tell everyone on the forum how easy the game is and that you don't feel any joy in playing it?


Dude...srsly. Go spend some time wit the wife and kids.

LOL. Actually, if you read my post, "easy" wasn't the problem.

I think you're confusing my post with the profligate complaints airing on the boards these days.

 

[grallon]

...

I have so many ideas about how to do that, but just don't have the time...

Well out of frustration after these early posts today I did go 'under the hood'. Once you observe the database structure it does start to make sense. Although a master index would be *very* useful. There are entries similar in almost every aspects except one will have a value that the others don't - and there's no explanation why.

I have modified the time span to increase the time spent during the ancient and classical eras. I have moved techs about, changing the prerequisites and so forth. But to my knowledge we're still limited to the actual number of techs.

Regarding the infamous 'trading outpost' - there doesn't seem to be any way of either limiting it to one per city or eliminating it altogether. So I just made it available much later during the game span.

I haven't found any way to tie certain techs to the landscape - though you can do so, after a fashion, for buildings (such as the harbor which requires the 'sea domain' to be built).

And of course the whole production routine is hard -coded to be limited at 1 item per city at a time. It's stupid since buildings and units are different beasts - see Stardock's "Elemental" for what I mean. Similarly acquiring knowledge is the one-at-a-time - limited - linear affair I've already complained about Sliders which you could chose to invest in and which would boost your knowledge production, say in 2 major fields (applied and fundamental for instance), would be so much more elegant (see Paradox' EU or HOI).

In any case there's much that could be changed. And no doubt much that can be when you master the modding tools. I'm a far cry from that. But it's feasible. However the latest "Elemental" patch will soon come out - and now that Kael is Exec Producer of that game we can expect great things out of it! So I'm not sure if I will have the time to dig further before those come out.




G.

 

[Bandit17]

No, man. I'm telling you--I'm ridiculously picky. I only play as the Greeks. That's how particular my play style is. It's stupid, but that's me.

The fact that you logged 300+ hours with just one civ is a great feat. I think I wouldve gotten bored too! One of the current strengths of ciV is that each civ promotes a different approach. You add in UU's, UA's, UB's, biased starts for optimization and the SP tree with all it's combinations and you have a lot of experimenting and possible fun to be had.

With your self constraints though I think that you are right and that there probably isn't anything else for you to experience. Wait for a Greek mod that suites you and in addition to the next patch you might find a few more hours of fun to be had.

 

[Bandit17]

Maccool:I was hoping for enough to check out civ 5. It's not there. See you again in 2 to 5 years.

I wouldn't let other people to do your thinking for you. Firaxis has a good track record in supporting their products and their next patch will hopefully improve most of the diplomacy and maybe some of the ai issues. The game is playable and even fun sometimes in it's current state. In your sig you are for science. Wouldn't a scientist run his own experiments? Your acting like a choir boy being told what to believe in. Go and find out for yourself because if your in these forums the interest is there.

 

[maccool]

Maccool:I was hoping for enough to check out civ 5. It's not there. See you again in 2 to 5 years.

I wouldn't let other people to do your thinking for you. Firaxis has a good track record in supporting their products and their next patch will hopefully improve most of the diplomacy and maybe some of the ai issues. The game is playable and even fun sometimes in it's current state. In your sig you are for science. Wouldn't a scientist run his own experiments? Your acting like a choir boy being told what to believe in. Go and find out for yourself because if your in these forums the interest is there.

Thanks for completely missing my point LOL

I've been playing since CIV 1, I've played most versions just later than most as I'm not a first adopter and I have to have the goods on the line before I buy (I don't buy and hope I like the patches).

I've run the CIV 5 demo 25 or more times, looked at various sites with various levels of info regarding the interface, play, etc. (most sites are just fanboy reviews trying to keep the lucre coming, but there are things out there that actually look at the nuts and bolts).

I've come here to see what real people think in order to flesh out my perspective. I figured there was a fair chance I was missing something obvious that would change my mind. I haven't seen it yet. The game just doesn't compel, yet. Notice your own lack of enthusiasm when you say " The game is playable and even fun sometimes in it's current state." That "sometimes" would be a case of damning with faint praise except you seem enthusiastic in the rest of your reply.

Maybe it will be compelling when the first patch hits the streets, maybe it will take the first or second large scale mod.

For me, the missing aspect seems to be the interactions between states and cities. City states seem over-weight for their trade and territory. City states don't seem to react as if their near neighbor was their biggest asset or biggest threat (depending on how they are treated). Nation states with multiple cities don't seem to benefit from the cities and the interactions between those cities.

And the play seemed sluggish. I really haven't been able to quantify this, it's just a feeling I get while playing. Like the AI and I are both wading thru a swamp. I can see the goals, it's just slogging thru muck to get there. Not a fun way to spend my leisure time.

I am going to take this opportunity to push for Firaxis/2K to build a new demo after any major enhancement. It's easier to run a demo than to try to divine from commentary if I really want to spend the money. A new demo reflecting the current game state might be the hook by which they get me to buy.

Thanks to all those out there providing thoughtful insight.

 

[SuperJay]

And the play seemed sluggish. I really haven't been able to quantify this, it's just a feeling I get while playing. Like the AI and I are both wading thru a swamp. I can see the goals, it's just slogging thru muck to get there. Not a fun way to spend my leisure time.

That's effectively what got me to set the game aside for now. There's just too much drudgery, and it's not limited to any one era of the game. I was enjoying it all at first when every unit and tech and building was new and shiny, but after a few weeks, the luster and novelty wore off and I didn't have much to do but build some more expensive buildings, disband some Workers, move some units around, and click Next Turn over and over. I finally acknowledged that I wasn't having any fun with Civ5 and decided to stop playing and wait until some significant patches and mods come out; here's hoping they'll make the game more engaging with time.

 

[lschnarch]

Oh my... You really run from one bug into the next one.

This time I have "auto-annexed" cities by viewing at them.

This game should be freeware. It is no fun at all.
I guess if they would have tried to make it unfun, they wouldn't have succeeded that much as they actually did.

I am really wondering what is going on at Firaxis. Are they drunken all day long?

 

[zub]

This has happened to me too. Now when that city conquered dialog comes I just chose puppet for all cities, then I consider which I keep,raze or give back.
They should use a regular notification not this huge popup which hides everything.

 

[Bandit17]

Thanks for completely missing my point LOL

I've been playing since CIV 1, I've played most versions just later than most as I'm not a first adopter and I have to have the goods on the line before I buy (I don't buy and hope I like the patches).

I've run the CIV 5 demo 25 or more times, looked at various sites with various levels of info regarding the interface, play, etc. (most sites are just fanboy reviews trying to keep the lucre coming, but there are things out there that actually look at the nuts and bolts).

I've come here to see what real people think in order to flesh out my perspective. I figured there was a fair chance I was missing something obvious that would change my mind. I haven't seen it yet. The game just doesn't compel, yet. Notice your own lack of enthusiasm when you say " The game is playable and even fun sometimes in it's current state." That "sometimes" would be a case of damning with faint praise except you seem enthusiastic in the rest of your reply.

Maybe it will be compelling when the first patch hits the streets, maybe it will take the first or second large scale mod.

For me, the missing aspect seems to be the interactions between states and cities. City states seem over-weight for their trade and territory. City states don't seem to react as if their near neighbor was their biggest asset or biggest threat (depending on how they are treated). Nation states with multiple cities don't seem to benefit from the cities and the interactions between those cities.

And the play seemed sluggish. I really haven't been able to quantify this, it's just a feeling I get while playing. Like the AI and I are both wading thru a swamp. I can see the goals, it's just slogging thru muck to get there. Not a fun way to spend my leisure time.

I am going to take this opportunity to push for Firaxis/2K to build a new demo after any major enhancement. It's easier to run a demo than to try to divine from commentary if I really want to spend the money. A new demo reflecting the current game state might be the hook by which they get me to buy.

Thanks to all those out there providing thoughtful insight.

I apologize for being harsh in my original response. It was your 2-5 year statement that through me since that time span is extremly long in the gaming world. I would check back in 6 months or so.

Your right that I showed reservations in defending the game and that's because there are balancing issues and ai issues that negativly affect the game. I refuse to be a blind fanboy and yet I can still enjoy the game during stretches of game time.

CS's are the Holy Grail but on higher difficulties you really need them to keep up with the ai and their bonuses they receive. If your lucky you'll find that Siam and sometimes England will compete for the CS's as well. I've also seen Darius buy CS's too.

I'll cut it off here since we're straying away from the op but just remember that forums typically will be filled with more negative than positive feedback.

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

If you're already admitting to have a very picky and particular play style, then it seems a little irrational to be upset that your whims aren't entirely catered to.

Getting 300+ hours of game play out of a single civilization is pretty huge. Well worth the price of the game.

Currently, I'm having a lot of fun playing a "No City Challenge." You play as Germany, and you delete your Settler at the beginning. Then you have to build up an army of barbarians, and capture cities, but you can only puppet cities, you can't annex anything.

It's made for a very unique sort of game, and it was neat being struggling with a tiny score for a long time, but now I've wiped out Persia, Egypt, Rome, and America. I miss being able to build Wonders a lot, but Washington had 5 wonders built when I captured that, so that's a nice different kind of satisfaction.

 

[maccool]

... but just remember that forums typically will be filled with more negative than positive feedback.

We have strayed a bit, but here's some insight into my view. There is more negative feedback for 2 reasons. First, human nature is to b&*ch but not commend. Second, is that lots of software tends to be released long before it is ready.

Scary thought, but I've been a code monkey since 1973 (EEK!). Every time some marketing guy sets the deadline it has been my experience that it goes badly. Lots of resource gets used to fix things after the fact (more resource than if it were rolled out in a more finished fashion). My time playing with CIV after 2 seems to bear that out. Anyone buying the first year really is their beta tester. It seems to take that first big mod pack to get things right.

And I've seen enough that I'm no longer in the mood to do someone else's job for free. What they should consider is what MS did with Win7. Hand out a free, timed version and let beta testers volunteer. Everyone posting negative now would be lots less p*&^ed as they would have no money spent to be a tester. Kind of a great promotion to build up steam (pun intended) for the release (more puns).

By the by, it never hurts to apologize (keeps the civility levels high), but you didn't need to.

Later ....

 

[Dermo]

If you're already admitting to have a very picky and particular play style, then it seems a little irrational to be upset that your whims aren't entirely catered to.

Getting 300+ hours of game play out of a single civilization is pretty huge. Well worth the price of the game.

Currently, I'm having a lot of fun playing a "No City Challenge." You play as Germany, and you delete your Settler at the beginning. Then you have to build up an army of barbarians, and capture cities, but you can only puppet cities, you can't annex anything.

It's made for a very unique sort of game, and it was neat being struggling with a tiny score for a long time, but now I've wiped out Persia, Egypt, Rome, and America. I miss being able to build Wonders a lot, but Washington had 5 wonders built when I captured that, so that's a nice different kind of satisfaction.

That sounds like a great idea. I'm going to have to try that for my next game.
Thanks

 

[aguds]

To the OP: If you have logged 300 hours allready in this game - isn't it to expect you are getting bored? Play/do something else, and pick up Civ again after an expansion or something for a different/re-newed experience.

300 hours man, that's almost two weeks. I would be bored to hell with anything after that amount of time.. Except Football Manager, of course. But on that I only clock about 400 hours pr. year - and this game hasn't been out all that long, so maybe you have overplayed it a bit?

You know, if you spend to much time with a girl you get annoyed by all the little things she does, and when you are past that phase where everything is golden it's good to be apart a few days a week for instance.