Improvement Ideas and Discussion

[0100010]

First here is a link to a much older thread, if anything there is still relevant.

Improvement likely need a balance review, many improvements have not much use, and that ought to change. (See the cottage line in the old thread)

Some ideas are to make better upgrade chains, and make certain improvements useful and/or necessary by making some buildings require said improvements in the city vicinity. (However does such a tag for buildings exist yet?)

There were some of the idea I had posted recently, just re-posting here for reference.

Desert Windmill (improvement) should be renamed to Modern Windmill and be an upgrade from the prior Windmill improvement. (use this switch to de-emphasize food and emphasize commerce/power/production)

Hydro Dam (improvement, new graphics/model required) should be an upgrade from the prior Watermill improvement. (use this switch to de-emphasize food and emphasize commerce/power/production)

Wind Farm should require Modern Windmill or Windtrap in the City Vicinity to be built.

Solar Power Plant(s) should require Solar Panels (improvement) in the City Vicinity to be built.

Hydro Plant should require Hydro Dam (improvement) in the City Vicinity to be built, and drop the river access requirement (the hydro dam improvement already requires a river)

Some more immediate suggestions:

Olive Gathering Camp, Olive Picking Camp, and Olive Orchard should be eliminated and replaced with the Orchard improvement line.

Jade should use a Quarry instead of a mine.

Guava should use Orchard improvements for access instead of plantation.

Rubber and Resin might need some kind of separate improvement if there is a desire to preserve the underlying forests/jungle they spawn on without using an Orchard line. While Orchard keep forests and such, their tech yield bonus are split between food and commerce, while neither Rubber nor Resin are edible. Plantations almost entirely boost commerce via tech bonuses, though I could argue Rubber and Resin might better serve splitting production and commerce on its tech bonus yields. (Plantation boost Food w/ Artificial Evolution, odd.)

Potentially open up Quarry for building w/out requiring a bonus underneath on Rocky Terrain and Rock formation features. These could make it easier to allow Quarry based bonus spawn chances

Review all bonus spawn chances on various improvements, several of the ones on Jungle Camp are outdated and make little sense to me. (the mineral ones)

Other improvements similar to Jungle Camp might be consider to allow spawning chances of various flora resources that are impossible to get via random spawning.


Thoughts on the above or other ideas?

 

[Faustmouse]

I like all of the above suggestions.
Someone else said that it would be cool if slowly, all improvement-lines grow together to one multi-purpose improvement, that acts like a city with vertical farms and mines underneath it.
A review of improvements is really necessary I think and should consider Bonus Spawn Rates, building time, upgrade time, upgrade path, bonus (and malus!) from tech, which worker unit is able to build it, the yields of course, weather or not it destroys a feature under it, where you can place it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Faustmouse

I don't really think that's a good idea to have all improvements eventually combine. If anything its more likely that there will be more types of improvements even if some improvements combine along the way. Plus the game would be extremely boring if all tiles will just filled with the same improvement.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

Some things could be best combined though, i mean, a Watermill does only take up the Riverside, and i know of cases where a Watermill was used to improve a Mine due to Mechanical methods, and i guess the same goes up for Windmills i guess

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Some more immediate suggestions:

Olive Gathering Camp, Olive Picking Camp, and Olive Orchard should be eliminated and replaced with the Orchard improvement line.

Jade should use a Quarry instead of a mine.

Guava should use Orchard improvements for access instead of plantation.

These changes will cause some problems in save games as it will mean that the resource will be lost until the correct improvement can be built.

If jade should use quarry shouldn't turquoise also.

 

[0100010]

These changes will cause some problems in save games as it will mean that the resource will be lost until the correct improvement can be built.

If jade should use quarry shouldn't turquoise also.

Turquoise does use quarries.

Spoiler :

 

[Faustmouse]

These changes will cause some problems in save games as it will mean that the resource will be lost until the correct improvement can be built.

IRC there were a few changes that would break savegames so they were delayed over and over again. It was said that they should all be released at one time so that there will be only one savegame-breaker-version.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

They don't break saves like some other things would.

 

[0100010]

IRC there were a few changes that would break savegames so they were delayed over and over again. It was said that they should all be released at one time so that there will be only one savegame-breaker-version.

Collect them all into a single thread then, see how many there are.

 

[LumenAngel]

The biggest problem for me is just some improvment don't improve a lot with technology. Farm gain many +1 food, but not quarry or lighthouse...

Another problem is lot of new improvement cant be forbidden for auto-worker. And maybe an option so workers WONT build a fort on a ressource because it's too far...

Potentially open up Quarry for building w/out requiring a bonus underneath on Rocky Terrain and Rock formation features. These could make it easier to allow Quarry based bonus spawn chances

+1

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is away to turn off some improvements for auto workers but it is cumbersome. It is in the BUG automations screen.

I am working on the Lighthouse upgrades but they reduce damage and increase speed on the plot so far. I also want to be allow both a lighthouse and a fishing boats improvement on a plot.

Note: the request for allowing fishing boats on plots without a resource has been tried elsewhere and failed. The AI code ignores sea plots without resources to speed up game turns. The new changes AI Koshling made for boats may have changed this somewhat. It now also checks for features on the plot like reef, coral, sea grass and kelp.

Adding the ability for quarries on those plots is a good idea and wont break games. Changing Jade to require quarry also wont break anything as log as we still leave it on mines in the same way stone is.

 

[Nevets_]

I always thought that there should be more "+yield for improvements in city radius" buildings, and fewer flat bonuses to improvements from tech. For example, a Farm Supply building should boost the productivity of all the farms near it, roads and street sign buildings should boost cottages, master Hunters should boost camps, marinas should boost fishing boats/lighthouses, slave market should boost mines & quarries, etc. And you could make some buildings with -yield modifiers (especially the prohibition law type buildings): labor rights reduces hammers from mines/quarries/workshops, outlawing drugs reduces commerce from hemp/coca/etc. tiles, environmental laws reduces commerce from mines/farms/workshops, animal cruelty laws reduce food from camps/pastures.

 

[meatball20]

cities can get a little close to one another. a great person point or two on worked tiles could entice more spacious cities from time to time<>

 

[Raven Destroyer]

There is away to turn off some improvements for auto workers but it is cumbersome. It is in the BUG automations screen.

I had an instant where my Automated Workes Burned down a Forest to get to Wheat Exactly what i didn't wanted to happen even though i Disabled it in BUG

 

[0100010]

I had an instant where my Automated Workes Burned down a Forest to get to Wheat Exactly what i didn't wanted to happen even though i Disabled it in BUG

How could this have even been possible? Maybe you are thinking about sword grass? Wheat doesn't spawn on forests unless you've modified the bonusinfos, and AFAIK forests don't randomly spawn/grow into a tile that contains a resource if that resource doesn't have forest as a valid location.

 

[0100010]

Here is a proposed set of changes, that I'll be testing this weekend.

Improvement Changes
Added Comment headers above each improvement

Lumberjack:

Prime Timber and Resin now have a 1/10k spawn chance.​

Deleted the commented out Lemon Farm improvement

Goody Hut:

Set bGraphicalOnly to false​

Farm:

Barley, Pumpkin and Squash now have a 1/10k spawn chance​

.

Mine, Shaft Mine, Modern Mine, Core Mine:

Removed spawn chance for Marble, Stone, Salt, Obsidian and Jade.
Fossils now have a 1/10k spawn.
Jade is no loner valid, but still has bBonusTrade as 1, to stay save game compatible
Increase Diamond Spawn chance from 1/100k to 1/10k​

Lumbermill:

Added Jungle as a valid feature (Jungle was already valid for Lumberjack, so this seemed like a error)
Prime Timber and Resin now have a 1/10k spawn chance.​

Plant Picker, Plantation: (it seems Plant Gatherer and Fruit Gatherer never originally supported Guavas as a valid bonus)

Guava is no longer valid, but still has bBonusTrade as 1, to stay save game compatible​

Quarry:

Added Terrain Rocky as valid
Added all Rock Form features as valid
Jade is now a valid bonus.
Marble, Stone, Salt, Obsidian, Turquoise, Jade, and Fossils have a 1/10k spawn.
​

Olive Gatherer, Olive Picker, Olive Farm:

Olives no longer valid, but still has bBonusTrade as 1, to stay save game compatible​

Jungle Camp:

Changed Coffee spawn to Cocoa spawn. (Jungle is not a valid feature for coffee in BonusInfos)
Changed Indigo to 1/10k spawn.
Changed Henna spawn to Vanilla spawn at 1/10k. (Jungle is not a valid feature for henna in BonusInfos)
Changed Amber to Melon spawn.
Changed Diamond to Fig spawn.
Changed Jade to Coca spawn.
Changed Ruby to Lemon spawn.
Changed Sapphire to Rubber spawn.
Added 1/10k Mushroom spawn.​

Fruit Gatherer, Fruit Picker, Orchard:

Made Olives and Guava valid bonuses.​

Note it seems that several resources do not have a supporting small image icon, or else something is missing, because when viewing the improvements in the civopedia,
the "Small chance of discovering RESOURCE_IMAGE" was either blank or the wrong resource image in many cases.

----
Main thing I'll be testing is verifying existing mines/Olive farms/plantations properly trade link the Jade/Olive/Guava resource w/out breaking saves.

However I would like to get that image problem corrected too, anyone have any ideas about how to do that?

Other ideas I'd like opinions on:

A Forest, and/or Desert Camp similar in effect to Jungle Camps, but allows spawn chances for Forest and Desert resources.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Note it seems that several resources do not have a supporting small image icon, or else something is missing, because when viewing the improvements in the civopedia,
the "Small chance of discovering RESOURCE_IMAGE" was either blank or the wrong resource image in many cases.
va resource w/out breaking saves.

However I would like to get that image problem corrected too, anyone have any ideas about how to do that?

It probably uses the same 16x16 TGA imige used in the city screen. We have been trying to get people to create these for ages. They are stored in the game fonts files in particular the gamefont_75 file. You need Asaf's Game Font editor to add these otherwise make a mistake of even 1 pixel and you can destroy the mod .

A Forest, and/or Desert Camp similar in effect to Jungle Camps, but allows spawn chances for Forest and Desert resources.

Lumber gatherer/Lumberjack/Lumber mill should only be valid on jungle if there is prime timber on the plot. The jungle camp should be able to find prime timber.

No need for a forest camp if the lumber improvements can find resources.

Desert Camp may be useful.

 

[Faustmouse]

1) Very cool that you took over that!

2) Isn't it so that you can also find minerals in a Quarry, or "rocks" in a mine? Maybe you should add spawn rates for these 1/50k as well.

3) Isn't it "boring" if all resources have the same chance for randomely spawning?

4) Desert and Forest Camp (and also, a Tundra Camp?) sounds like cool ideas! But I would limit it a bit, so that for example you can't have Desert Camps when there is no freshwater on the adjected tile. It seems wrong to me that the whole desert is improved with these. Tundra Improvements could have a heating Tech as prereq so they don't come too early. All Camps should probably have much higher spawnrates but also much lower yields. So that you have to think twice if you want a yield increasing feature or plan ahead and prefer to discover new resources.

 

[0100010]

It probably uses the same 16x16 TGA imige used in the city screen. We have been trying to get people to create these for ages. They are stored in the game fonts files in particular the gamefont_75 file. You need Asaf's Game Font editor to add these otherwise make a mistake of even 1 pixel and you can destroy the mod .



Lumber gatherer/Lumberjack/Lumber mill should only be valid on jungle if there is prime timber on the plot. The jungle camp should be able to find prime timber.

No need for a forest camp if the lumber improvements can find resources.

Desert Camp may be useful.

Give me a link to the font editor, and I might give it a shot.

the current version of the mod, Luumberjack can be build on Jungle, bonus or not. (I have to double check it for Pine Gatherer, can't look atm.) You're saying you don't want jungle to be valid w/out the timber resource? Resin & Timber can be added as spawns for the jungle camp easily.

My idea for the forest camp was more for other (food oriented) flora bonuses (that grow on forest according to BonusInfo) not currently covered, (Apple, Olives, etc...) I guess some of those can be in the lumber chain. I am aiming to keep spawn support consistent with bonus info validity. This does leave a few weird bonuses that for example, grow on forests (but not jungles) at low latitude / tropical areas. However arbitrarily adding them to Lumber jack / lumber mill, could mean they spawn on a Pine forest on top of a tundra. Point is, I do not know if the improvement based bonus spawn chances also check the bonus info rules, to determine if it is ok to spawn it there on the rare chance a spawn happened. (ie if it has the correct underlying terrain, feature, and latitude)

Can some one look in the dll code or point out the python file that handles these random spawns to me to verify this?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@0100010

Glad someone is taking the time to look through these.

Desert Camp may be useful.

It would also be nice to have a Tundra Camp and Wetland Camp. Both areas can be harsh for trying to grow a city nearby them. Especially if mangroves are nearby.