Improving Protective Trait

[pandamancer]

Happy new year Kid R! It's been a while. Let me see here...

Well a patch and a mod are completely different things. A patch is something which would become the new standard game, like BTS 3.19 is now. That would of necessity be pretty much the same as the current standard game but with bug fixes and perhaps if we're lucky a few balance tweaks. With a mod the sky's the limit in terms of changing the game - maybe for the better you might say with something like KMOD, but it won't be the standard.

I have been thinking in my posts in this thread about PRO as it could be tweaked in a possible Firaxis patch. Perhaps you are thinking about it in some kind of mod which would feature a stronger PRO trait among other more significant changes?

Honestly, I am not very sure right here. I seldom see game companies still improve on their off-the-shelf games. Now that BNW is out, I think they are more focused in improving their currently "hot" project rather than this one.

Well who knows, miracles happen?

Absolutely agree - I was just trying to make an alternative case for something I see as more thematically consistent, as well as being a smaller and less balance-disrupting tweak. I think it would be really good if Firaxis solicited player opinion, even some kind of voting on various issues, if they ever did make a new patch, but I can't really see that happening can you?

Nah, it needs too much effort for them to do it. But I suggest that we stop using the term "thematically consistent" because it is subjective to our beliefs and there will be no end to this. Perhaps let just agree that we disagree?

Lots of traits struggle on isolated starts. But having a 7x7 fogbuster unit on a hilltop would be useful in any kind of start, perhaps even more on isolated actually. Or if sentry isn't good enough, give them e.g. free medic 1 (PROTECT by healing!) I mean some combo of promos could be made "about right" in balance terms.

If you're against the idea of more promos, you should say that, and why. Not just shoot down the suggested one (sentry) in one kind of minority-interest map type, as if that covers all promo-related ideas across a range of typical games

I did mentioned that in post #18 and #21 that each civ gets some snowball effect. Even the aggressive is entitled to renaissance nationhood buff (for barracks). If you do agree on the idea of castles+SP over free market+corporations as suggested by Ghpstage in post #30, then there is nothing to discuss about.

I shot down you idea not because that I don't like promotion type of buff. I evaluate if it will pass these questions:

• Does it give a snowball effect?
• Can you take advantage of it by active means all of the time? (not something that gets activated on certain scenario like enemy DoWs you). You can also interpret it as "useful to the development of an empire on a more consistent basis"
• Is it too overpowered? Given that you already have the faster production of walls/castles and PRO promotions.

Don't feel that I am dissuading you. I just want you to give us a polished idea. You are doing a good job so far!

Hmm, I thought it was generally agreed that PRO is already a decent trait for the AIs, both against humans and other AIs.

Don't make assumptions like that. It is true that PRO gives us a headache in besieging their cities. But how about it's usefulness on other scenarios like when at peace? (Same could be said for AGG that's why it belongs to the lower tier as well)

 

[pandamancer]

What if you were to make higher level cottages count as cities for combat purposes (so that city garrison would help defending them) and make forts better to have on your borders (say +1 visibility for units in forts) and double production speed of forts for workers.

Maurcus, I like your idea. Can you improve on it like special forts as Kid R mentioned?

 

[Culture Bomb]

Other ideas:

Walls give +1 trade route, Castles give +2 trade routes. (sorry if this has already been suggested, I might have missed it among all the other discussion about trade routes.)

Walls give +1 culture per turn

Units gain +100% experience from defensive battles (and +100% GG points?)

Faster healing inside cultural borders. (If this included recently captured cities it could also be useful for offensive wars.)

 

[Xunin]

Slightly off topic perhaps and I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but...

I think PRO is a bland, boring, superfluos (to name a few) concept to begin with. Especially in a game in which the best defense doesn't come from spamming units behind city walls (as is evident watching any high level play), it comes from maintaining good diplomacy. If you got DoWed then yes protective archers helps mitigating your losses. But my point is if you got DoWed, you already failed.

OTOH, it's just annoying having to deal with protective longbows in an AI hill city. It doesn't add anything to the game, it doesn't provide the player with any strategical depth, it doesn't present the player with choice. It's the definition of anti-fun, IMO.

What I would have much prefered is a complete overhaul of the trait, possibly remaking it into something else entirely.

For example, Protective => Traditionalistic
* Reduce anger duration by 2-3 turns
* Increase golden age duration by 2-3 turns
* Monument providing 2 culture

The gist of it is that the people is content despite living under otherwise harsh conditions (consider japanese work ethics, korean education system, islamic sharia laws et.c.).

Thematically it fits most if not all current PRO civs. But more importantly (and this is, yet again, my personal opinion), seems like a lot more fun.

On another note I'd also want to throw AGG a bone since it's almost as bad as PRO.

 

[maurcus]

Maurcus, I like your idea. Can you improve on it like special forts as Kid R mentioned?

I would say a fort that gives +1(or 2) bonus sight and a 50% defense bonus as well as maybe something to control surrounding tiles (chance to damage or stop enemy troops, etc...) although that would require some python.

 

[kristopherb]

How about giving drill 1 a first strike? as opposed to a chance.

 

[pandamancer]

Other ideas:

Walls give +1 trade route, Castles give +2 trade routes. (sorry if this has already been suggested, I might have missed it among all the other discussion about trade routes.)

Can also be. But take note. If you gain too many trade routes, some of them only grants you +1 , unless your AI has tons of cities compared to you

Walls give +1 culture per turn

That is pretty useful in early game.

Units gain +100% experience from defensive battles (and +100% GG points?)

Faster healing inside cultural borders. (If this included recently captured cities it could also be useful for offensive wars.)

I have posted some questions here, so I am not very enthusiastic about it. Not sure if these can help...

 

[pandamancer]

On another note I'd also want to throw AGG a bone since it's almost as bad as PRO.

Indeed

 

[pandamancer]

I would say a fort that gives +1(or 2) bonus sight and a 50% defense bonus as well as maybe something to control surrounding tiles (chance to damage or stop enemy troops, etc...) although that would require some python.

Actually, I am thinking of able to build forts on tiles with cottages/village/towns/forest preserve already in place so it can be quite a nuisance when the enemy attacks and at the same time, you can still work on your BFC.

--------------

EDIT:

What if you were to make higher level cottages count as cities for combat purposes

I think your idea works the same principle as mine

 

[pandamancer]

How about giving drill 1 a first strike? as opposed to a chance.

I have posted some questions here. Hope it helps

 

[cseanny]

50% Discount on Hunting and Archery. 25% Discount on Machinery, Gunpowder, and Rifling........or a tech discount % based on Age. Nothing overpowering but a slight bump which can help shave 5-10 turns off things in the long run.

 

[elitetroops]

50% Discount on Hunting and Archery. 25% Discount on Machinery, Gunpowder, and Rifling........or a tech discount % based on Age. Nothing overpowering but a slight bump which can help shave 5-10 turns off things in the long run.

Would this mean that the techs are worth 50%/25% less beakers to pro civs? Wouldn't this make them trade them away a lot cheaper also? If it's a beaker boost when researching these, then that would instead force pro civs to always selftech machinery and gunpowder, or lose beakers when having to overpay for trades.

Tech discounts for traits could be interesting as it could encourage alternative tech paths with different leaders, just not sure how it best could be implemented to not mess up tech trading...

 

[Kid R]

If you do agree on the idea of castles+SP over free market+corporations as suggested by Ghpstage ... then there is nothing to discuss about.

Changing the way castles work has been discussed many times so it's clearly a tempting idea, but it's not a good one. Somebody in a previous thread said (I forget who or the exact wording) "If you want to buff PRO, buff PRO, but don't screw up the game balance elsewhere trying to buff PRO indirectly".

 

[Kid R]

...[re. PRO good for AIs] ... Don't make assumptions like that. It is true that PRO gives us a headache in besieging their cities. But how about it's usefulness on other scenarios like when at peace? (Same could be said for AGG that's why it belongs to the lower tier as well)

It's not really an assumption, it's summarising the views of many posters here. PRO kicks ass if you're an AI, not much question about it It plays really well against dumb AI attacks and smart human ones, letting them kill significantly more attackers than they would otherwise.

Plus all the AIs (as currently coded) *WILL* build lots of walls, and *WILL* beeline engineering and build lots of castles, regardless of war or peace. So the free hammers always benefit PRO AIs there too. IMO PRO is actually rather better for the AIs than AGG due to their tactical inability to get the best from attack promos.

 

[Kid R]

I just want you to give us a polished idea....

OK here is my final offer: Free sentry promotion on all units. Does that fulfill your criteria? Let's see...

• Snowball effect? Yes - the exploration, fogbusting and barb-defence part of the game is very important on all difficulties. Something to help there (saving a few hammers and generally assisting decision-making) is a useful early bonus. (Also nice for people who play with huts on).
• Useful deeper into the game? Yes - in all your wars you have a little tactical help. At peace post-writing and post-optics you can explore a little more effectively. And all the time generally keep an eye on SODs better to see them coming, or spot dogpile opportunities etc.
• Overpowered? Not really, sentry isn't really a game-changer just nice. And it won't help the AIs much - they get plenty of scouting anyway, and suck at tactics.
• Other benefits: Simple to explain. Simple to implement. Thematically consistent ("Forewarned is forearmed") - oops sorry I forgot we're not allowed to talk about thematic consistency any more are we?

Oh yes and happy new year!!

 

[kristopherb]

I think to properly balance protective and thus improve to protect, would be to completely rewrite the other traits. Though if you were to completely rewrite the traits ,what level of "power" would give them also you'll need to keep the flavour.

Ideas?

 

[babar]

@Kid R. I wanted to give the sentry idea a try but I can't figure out how to do it in XML.

I've been messing around with trade routes on walls (removed stone modifier, +50% all trades, -25% foreign, although +100% -80% and increased cost might be better), but I'm far from an expert on trade routes. It's not really satisfactory though for a number of reasons, particularly that I can't seem to limit it to PRO.

I'm starting to think that the most obvious idea: +1 on PRO walls might be the best. Of course that overlaps with CHA somewhat and would leave AGG clearly the worst.

 

[AdamCrock]

Any.... tactics is always better than no tactics So if you got what it takes to be the world's master it is that thing ! hold on to it ! ....

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

What about +1 Espionage in all cities similar to what Creative is for Culture? It certainly fits thematically. Alternatively boost Walls and Castle. You could make them store a small amount of food similar to the granary, reasoning that to withstand lengthy sieges you also need to be able to survive on the food in storage.

 

[babar]

As far as I know the two civ leaders most famous for espionage were Stalin and Genghis, and they are both AGG (although I don't know why Stalin is). Also I would like to vote again for not encouraging poisoned water and randomly destroyed buildings and improvements.

Anything food related would be OP.

I'm probably very slow, but it only just occurred to me that the common theme for PRO leaders is really unification. The trait as it stands doesn't really reflect this however, and it's hard to think of how to do it better with the available XML options.