In Absence of Food and Rivers

[Framesticker]

I just played a the Joao II Nobles' Club scenario, and I've come across a point when both riverside grasslands (for cottages) or food (for running specialists) are scarce as hell. Currently these are the only two methods I'm good at for running a decent economy, and seeing as I'm getting consistent wins out of Monarch I'd like to learn some more about adapting to sticky situations like that before going to Emperor.

Now, I've read some articles a long time ago about religious economies, water conomies and other dittys like that, but I've never really grasped the concept on when, where and how should I pursue them.

So I guess my question essentially boils down to this: when running enough of cottages/specialists to keep a decent research up is impossible, what stategy should I pursue to get my economy together?
Thanks.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I can imagine your way(s) out would depend on plenty of factors and... to each map, a different solution.
Low food usually means high production.
Few cities usually means fast(er) tech rate, until... your few cities are fully developped and you need more land to keep on teching faster.

Attempt at sorting the outs :
- Alphabet/Currency : use production to tech.
- Civil Service asap : allows to irrigate far inland and grow cities that would be worthless otherwise (for this and Alpha/Currency : Writing asap).
- Invade the guy behind the desert : grass is greener on the other side, right ? (here... well...)
- Build a wonder or ten. Choice may vary.

Choosing (the right mix) between those solutions would depend on the map :
- How many decent city spots do you have ? The less you have, the sooner you need to invade.
- How far is your closest neighbour ? Related to the above point.
- What resources do you have ? Determines accessible wonders, units and happy cap (hence tech rate, to an extent).


It wouldn't be an easy map, in any case. And you would need to make your decisions very early, with little information, to be super successful.

 

[raxid]

I can imagine your way(s) out would depend on plenty of factors and... to each map, a different solution.
Low food usually means high production.
Few cities usually means fast(er) tech rate, until... your few cities are fully developped and you need more land to keep on teching faster.

I think both of these points are wrong. More food = more of everything, you can't work those plains hills without food. And fewer cities often means higher slider % not faster tech rate...

As for the question at hand, a water economy (as you put it) is more generally a trade route economy. This can be very effective when most of your cities are going to be coastal (or can become coastal without much sacrifice). Of course the Great Lighthouse greatly helps this type of economy.

Also I feel the biggest thing that helps teching at higher levels (especially when confronted with suboptimal land) is smart tech decisions. This usually boils down to teching or bulbing things the AI doesn't have/prioritize and using those to backfill the things they do prioritize.

As for a religious economy its mainly a gambit and isn't worth it (on higher levels).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Aye, you're right to point out those 2 sentences. I haven't been specific enough. Well... I say so but maybe I'm wrong anyways

"Low food usually means high production" ... per tile. Sorry for the ambiguous phrasing. I was referring to the green vs brown output, not a city output. I said "usually" because some low food areas are made of desert and/or lots of coast without seafood, in which case the production is low as well.

"Few cities usually means fast(er) tech rate, until... your few cities are fully developped and you need more land to keep on teching faster."
Yes, this is clearly questionable. I don't think it's wrong per se, but it isn't right per se either I guess you're considering a long period of time, whereas I was thinking short term, and especially in the early game. Note the "until [...] you need more land to keep on teching faster."
-->
It takes some time for new cities to produce more commerce than they eat in maintenance. Especially if you already have a handful of cities and only mediocre spots at hand.
In any case, cities are an investment : for a time, they lower your available commerce.
If you're gunning for a key (economic) tech, then it makes sense to delay that investment. That tech will then act as a treshold for your expansion.
Specifically, most cities are settled when you have the techs to make them productive. Otherwise, settle 10s of them and the added maintenance just takes you away from those techs you need to work the land.
So... I didn't mean one should play OCC because cities cost money, eh ? Just that having only few spots to settle, in some cases, could accelerate your way to a few key techs.
(Settle 1 city and reach Writing fast vs superREX 10 cities and barely reach it + Pottery).

Hope that makes sense, now.
Sorry for the trouble.

 

[deathturnip]

As has already been said, your tech priority needs to be reconsidered. Another new priority is to trade for MC, since if most of you tech is hammer based, this is a 25% increase. Replaceable parts will be valuable to turn plains hills into an equivalent of grass hills with mines (windmill in case you had not guessed) and Biology will obviously be a boon.

Also remember that if you have a wonder sped by a resource that you own, it is more efficient to fail at building it than to build commerce. At least I am pretty sure of that... Assuming I am right about that, wonder enabling techs become more valuable even if you do not really want the wonder.

Fortunately the AI does not really reconsider its tech path based on the land all that well, so if you play your cards right you might not end up too far behind.

 

[hal08]

Can you provide a link to the Jao noble club? I'm interested in checking it out.

 

[Framesticker]

Can you provide a link to the Jao noble club? I'm interested in checking it out.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=315035
This is the Nobles' Club Bullpen, you can find all the games they've played here.

And as far as the thread goes, thanks. I've understood the key points of developing bad land. I've also read the Water Economy article in the Strategy Article section ad learned a lot. I'll be trying an Archipelago or the JoaoII game again. Thanks.

 

[SillyGoat]

My normal method of dealing with cruddy land is to build an army and go and take some better land from an AI.

 

[robvollman]

My normal method of dealing with cruddy land is to build an army and go and take some better land from an AI.

Exactly. Let your neighbours build rich cities with lots of improvements, surrounded by cottages, and possibly even housing a money-making religious capital. Meanwhile you build an army. When all is said and done you'll have the city AND your army, and he'll have neither.

 

[Negator_UK]

The point made about needing food to work hill is valid, but the overall point made about hills is also valid - you have to use what you've got until you can take something better.

In this case it seems to be that you have to set up as many good production centres (no need to work all your tiles, just place good cities)as you can and production research/wealth to get whatever tech you need (probably construction) to roll over your neighbour - if you realised your situation quickly you could always do a rush with axe or swords, but cats are next in line timewise.

Avoid whipping, until just before your war starts (you can whip an extra unit to get your stack as big as possible just before you invade) and don't forget that food is your objective here, no rushing for the AIs desert gold city

 

[Grashopa]

The engineering with pro thread had poor land. I'd say thats more typical poor land than saying you have no food or fresh water for farms. In that game getting the HE unlocked and going to war early was the answer. If you have 1 site where you can get enough hammers which is typically guaranteed by the map generator to be your capital then getting the HE unlocked and getting 45+ hammers/turn means you can war off of just that one city.