infantry promotions

[tu_79]

I was trying to distribute melee promotions in a fashion that makes choices interesting.

I distributed thinking in roles, being drill oriented to special actions and shock oriented for full combat. I also have in mind that basic promotions are the gate for upper tier promotions, so they don't need to be better.

So this proposed promotion is open to changes, but I'd like that before criticizing you give it some thought.

Drill I: +5%CS, +25% vs barbs. (Exclusive promotions Cover I, Cover II)
Drill II: +10%CS, +30% vs city (Exclusive Siege)
Drill III: +15%CS, +30% vs city (Exclusive Amphibious)
Shock I: +5%CS, +20% flanking (Exclusive Formation, Ambush)
Shock II: +10%CS, +25% flanking (Exclusive Mobility)
Shock III: +15%CS, +30% flanking (Exclusive Blitz)

I think Formation and Ambush should be merged, but that's for another thread.

The reason for the barb bonus is that a unit specialized in cities cannot gain experience easily, and since the bonus vs fortified is removed, it's more difficult to fight against barb camps. This solves both, and the unit is still useful for CS invasions and rebellions.
Additionally, drill units have exclusive access to cover and amphibious, what makes them extra useful against cities, as cities use to be in rivers, but also as medic and as a support unit.
Shock is heavily oriented for combat. Extra flanking and access to extra damage, extra movement and extra hit. They still can benefit from heal promotions

Other promotions like Medic, Woodsman and March can still be accessed from both drill and shock for their current level.

 

[tu_79]

Here, some examples of this distribution.

A drill unit can be:
- A city-taker : Drill I, Drill II, Siege, Drill III, March, Amphibious
- A one man fortress: Drill I, Cover, Drill II, Woodsman, Cover II, Drill III.
- A reliable medic: Drill I, Medic I, Drill II, Medic II, Cover/Woodsman, March
- Suggestions:

A shock unit can be:
- A flanking unit: Shock I, Shock II, Mobility, Shock III, March, Woodsman.
- The Damage Dealer: Shock I, Shock II, Shock III, Blitz, Formation, Amphibious.
- A combat medic: Shock I, Medic I, Shock II, Shock III, March.
- Suggestions:

Free Drill I from Alhambra fits in the defensive mindset. Free Shock for sword units fits in the 'now this unit can attack better than knights' mindset. Although a free Formation/Ambush promotion could have served to balance the scales, too.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Reposting this here:

Just brainstorming how a different promotion system might work. Not sure how much or how little they're up for change, but I figured I'd lay out some ideas.


(Only for Melee / Gunpowder.)

First Melee Promotions:

Drill - 10% CS, 10% CS as a city garrison.

Shock - 10% CS, 10% CS when flanking a unit.

Second Melee Promotions:

Drill II - 10% CS, 10% CS as a City Garrison. 15% bonus to City Ranged Attack while Garrisoned.

Shock II - 10% CS, 10% CS when flanking a unit. Ending turn next to an enemy deals 5 damage.

Medic - [Unchanged]

Cover - [Unchanged]

Signal Specialists - Decreases flanking bonus of enemy units within 2 tiles by 10%.

Third Melee Promotions:

Drill III - 10% CS, +1 movement in friendly territory.

Shock III - 10% CS, Zone of Control movement penalty reduced to 2 movement cost.

March - Ignores Zone of Control in Friendly Territory. Heals every turn.

Blitz - Extra attack in enemy territory. 25% Defensive Bonus on turns when it has attacked.

Cover II [Unchanged]

Medic II [Unchanged]

Signal Specialists II - Enemy units within 1 tile of this unit take 10% additional damage from ranged attacks.

Fourth Melee Promotions [Mutually Exclusive]:

Corps Band - +2 Local Culture, +2 Local Happiness while Serving as a City Garrison.

Training Camp Auditors - +3 Experience to New Units (per military experience building) while Serving as a City Garrison.

Terminal Promotions (Unlocks after anything from Third Melee):

Military Theorists - Combat Experience converts to Science in the Capital. [No further promotions can be gained. No further GG points can be earned from this unit.]

Military Historians - Combat Experience converts to Culture in the Capital. [No further promotions can be gained. No further GG points can be earned from this unit.]

 

[tu_79]

I've answered in the other post, but to be short:
I like plain +1 movement, reduced ZoC penalty and 5 damage against adjacent. I don't mind if further drill and shock promotions give something different, as long as it's themed.

EDIT. I also like your webcomic

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I've answered in the other post, but to be short:
I like plain +1 movement, reduced ZoC penalty and 5 damage against adjacent. I don't mind if further drill and shock promotions give something different, as long as it's themed.

EDIT. I also like your webcomic

Thanks!

 

[tu_79]

There is also some vanilla promotions that were dropped, maybe they weren't considered fun.
There was a promotion that adds +20% to the unit when attacks, and other that adds +20% when the unit defends. There was the garrison bonus. The simpler +1 movement. And the sight promotion. And the dreaded +rough/open bonus.
To continue the brainstorming, how about more supporting abilities?
- Refresh: Instantly switch place with adjacent friendly unit whose HP is under 50.
- Sabotage: Single attack with half damage, 50% chance that hit unit lose its turn.
- Trapper: Adjacent enemy units need to spend 1 extra movement to escape.
- Pierce: Enemy unit behind target receives an attack at half CS.
EDIT
- Master Tactician: Can move over 1 friendly unit without spending any movement point. That unit loses 2 movement points.
EDIT2
- Recruiter: The unit heals 20% of damage dealt.
EDIT3
- Challenger: +10%CS if target is over 50HP, +20% CS if target is over 100HP.
EDIT4
- Entrenchment: Unit may fortify one additional turn for extra +20%CS (in three turns, it achieves +60%)
- Management: Unit may attack a similar friendly unit to recover 50HP. Target is instantly killed, and nothing else gained for the kill.
- Teaser: After retreating, all enemy units adjacent to initial hex suffer 5 HP.

 

[Gazebo]

We're not trying to reinvent the wheel with promotions, everyone. Let's keep it simple, and keep it tied to existing functionality. Remember that new promotions that change gameplay in any appreciable way would require a lot of AI work, which is a non-starter right now.

G

 

[tu_79]

That's what I initially thought. And then Gothic_Empire started teasing me, hehe.

So back to work on post #1

 

[Gothic_Empire]

That's what I initially thought. And then Gothic_Empire started teasing me, hehe.

So back to work on post #1

Come to the dark side. It has new features.

 

[tu_79]

Before making further mistakes, here is the complete melee promotion now:
Name / Requir / Priority / Effect
Drill I / None / 2 / +10%CS, +25% City
Drill II / Drill I / 2 / +10%CS, +25% city
Drill III / Drill II / 2 / +10%CS, + 25% city
Shock I / None / 2 / +10%CS, +25% flank
Shock II / Shock I / 2 / +10%CS, +25% flank
Shock III / Shock II / 2 / +10%CS, +25% flank

Siege / Basic II / 3 / +50% city
Medic / Basic I / 3 / heal 5 HP friendly adjacent and itself
Medic II / Medic I / 3 / heal 5 HP to any adjacent and itself
Amphibious / Basic I / 4 / Ignores rivers and shores penalties
Cover I / Basic I / 4 / +25% ranged defense
Cover II / Basic II / 4 / +25% ranged defense
Charge / Basic II / 4 / +25% vs wounded, +10% open attack
Charge II / Charge I / 4 / +25% wounded, +10% open attack
Formation I / Basic II / 5 / +10% open defense
Formation II / Formation I / 5 / +10% open defense
Ambush I /Basic II & Combustion / 6 / +15% rough attack
Ambush II / Ambush I / 6 / +15% rough attack
March / Basic III / 7 / Heals every turn
Blitz / Drill III / 7 / Extra attack
Woodsman / Basic III / 7 / +10% rough defense

 

[tu_79]

Well, nobody said anything, so I have to say it: the bonus vs barbs conflicts with the Authority SP, so even if I like it, I have to figure something else.

Drill and Shock aren't optional. It's kind of a dichotomy. Like being from one school of thinking or the other, like being blue or brown water for naval. After that choice, it doesn't matter which brach you took, all promotions are equally available, but Blitz. Second level of any promotion is usually less interesting than just upgrade to next basic promotion, and not only for the promotions that opens, but for the basic promotion itself.

Now, I'll try another approach. I hope those changes are small enough to let them happen without further learning.
Drill is going to be focused for units that attack first, and Shock is going to be focused for units that finish the enemies off. Both units have a reason to exist in any situation, be it agressive or pacific. Some promotions will be favored by the basic promotion that is chosen, and a bunch of them, just exclusive.

For the basic promotions:
Name / Requir / Priority / Effect
Drill I /None / 2 / +10% vs targets with 50+ HP, +10% vs targets with 100+ HP
(this means +10% vs a unit whose HP is more than 50 and less than 100, and +20% vs a unit whose HP is 100 or more, it includes cities)
Drill II / Drill I / 2 / +5% CS, +20% vs city
Drill III / Drill II / 2 / +10% CS, + 30% vs city
Shock I / None / 2 / +10 % vs targets with 99- HP, +10% vs targets with 49-HP
(this is the opposite of Drill, it deals +20% in total to targets with less than 50 HP)
Shock II / Shock I / 2 / +5% CS, +20% flank
Shock III / Shock II / 2 / +10% CS, +30% flank

For other promotions:
Amphibious / Basic I / 4 / Ignores river and shore penalties
Medic I / Drill II or Shock I / 3 / heal 5 HP to friendly adjacent
Medic II / Medic I / 3 / heal 5HP to any adjacent and 10 HP to itself
Cover I / Drill I or Shock II / 3 / +20% ranged defense
Cover II / Cover I / 3 / +30% ranged defense
Siege / Drill II or Shock III / 3 / +50% city
Formation I / Basic II / 5 / +10% defense
Formation II / Formation I / 5 / +20% defense
Ambush I / Drill III or Shock II / 5 / +10% attack
Ambush II / Ambush I / 5 / +20% attack
March / Basic III / 7 / Heals every turn
Blitz / Drill III / 7 / Extra attack
Woodsman / Shock III / 7 / Ignores terrain movement, +10% rough

I've dropped Charge, as it conflicts with Shock I. Just leave it for mounted units.

 

[tu_79]

I'll show how it develops as promotions are earned:

Spoiler :

Drill I opens:
Drill II, Amphibious and Cover.

Drill II opens:
Drill III, Medic, Formation and Siege

Drill III opens:
Ambush, March and Blitz

On the other branch.
Shock I opens:
Shock II, Amphibious and Medic

Shock II opens:
Shock III, Formation, Ambush and Cover

Shock III opens:
Siege, March and Woodsman.

Summed over:
Drill I > [Amphibious, Cover], Drill II > [Medic, Formation, Siege], Drill III > [Ambush, March, Blitz]
Shock I > [Amphibious, Medic], Shock II > [Formation, Ambush, Cover], Shock III > [Siege, March, Woodsman]


So, Drill units are the first punch, can attack cities sooner, defend well against ranged and have an exclusive extra attack. They are supposed to hit full HP units and cities.
Shock units are there to place the last hit and chase fleeing enemies. They can heal sooner, improve attack and run faster in rough.

(1) Formation improves just defence
(2) Ambush improves just attack
(3) Woodsman removes terrain movement penalties in addition to +10% in rough (It's a tier 4 promotion after all)
(4) Drill and Shock are better at each level, but not more than any other promotion available.

 

[tu_79]

Is any of the proposed promotion changes too much for the AI?
Does it feel interesting?
Will it work for any condition?

 

[Jungle Rhino]

Just wanted to comment that the names should probably be around the other way. In WW2 the Soviet Shock Armies were equipped for and tasked with urban combat - e.g. the final assault on Berlin. Conversely to successfully execute a Flank march required extremely good discipline and coordination that you would associate with Drilled troops

 

[tu_79]

Just wanted to comment that the names should probably be around the other way. In WW2 the Soviet Shock Armies were equipped for and tasked with urban combat - e.g. the final assault on Berlin. Conversely to successfully execute a Flank march required extremely good discipline and coordination that you would associate with Drilled troops

Thanks! I would have thought that drill is, like the tool, something to pierce while shock is something to disperse enemies, so it make sense for me that drills attack first and shock later. But if it's not historically so, I would gladly change the name.

 

[tu_79]

You seem to also suggest that Drill troops are high mobility in addition to being able to flank.
Drill I : Better last attack
Drill II & III : Flanking
Shock I : Better first attack
Shock II & III : Cities

Tell me if this distribution fits more:
Drill I > Amphibious, Medic, Drill II > Cover, Formation, Ambush, Drill III > Siege, March, Woodsman
Shock I > Amphibious, Cover, Shock II > Medic, Formation, Siege, Shock III > Ambush, March, Blitz

 

[tu_79]

A see a little problem with Ambush. The current promotion improves attack and defence in rough terrain (when the unit is in rough terrain). I proposed a simpler +attack bonus, and it competes with siege promotion. I should have specified +attack vs units bonus, so it doesn't improve city combat. (I wouldn't ambush a city).

 

[Legen]

To be sure, am I the only one that likes the current Drill (+10% CS, +20% vs city)? I'm enjoying how an infantry unit can reach +110% vs cities from promotions alone and still be useful against enemy units. Particularly when playing a civ that has any martial bonus (Japan, Sweden, Greece...) to compensate for the lower flanking bonuses.

 

[tu_79]

To be sure, am I the only one that likes the current Drill (+10% CS, +20% vs city)? I'm enjoying how an infantry unit can reach +110% vs cities from promotions alone and still be useful against enemy units. Particularly when playing a civ that has any martial bonus (Japan, Sweden, Greece...) to compensate for the lower flanking bonuses.

Its mayor flaw is when playing peacefully. This branch has nothing interesting for a player interested only in defence. I mended only Drill I (or renamed Shock for historical accuracy) for those not going on conquest, and left Drill II & III with city bonuses. You still can achieve +100% vs city (siege (50), drill II (20), drill III (30), and exclusive Blitz). But if you don't want to conquer anything, you can still go Drill I>Cover for a better defensive unit.

 

[Legen]

A bonus vs cities isn't flawed when playing defensively: a player that is turtling or hasn't yet decided which victory to pursuit may need to reconquer a city from an invader, to liberate a city (especially if it acts as an allied buffer against an aggressive civ), to conquer one for a CS quest, or just conquer a city from the attacker to act as a buffer against a future war. Also, city states are sometimes overrun by barbarians and, it if is in your neighborhood, you have a huge incentive to liberate it with whatever makeshift force you can produce in a short time.

A peaceful player may also want a backup plan in case another peaceful civ threatens to win first, like a SV-oriented Babylon player seeing AI Brazil being influential to most civs too fast, a Deity AI Korea outresearching everyone, or a diplomatic civ having way too many votes from his religion.

It's not as much of a priority compared to Shock, but it hurts to have that bonus vs cities delayed if a peaceful civ finds itself in any of the listed situations.